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This is long, but informative for those interested.....
I've been trying to reach K & B this morning and while I'm waiting to get in touch, I'd like some opinions about a TI problem I've encountered. This on a '65 Fuelie, fully restored, Top Flighted 2 years ago in Kissimmee.
As part of the restoration, we discovered a bad "early" repro TI module, circa 1974. It was totally dead with no output. Checked all TI related equipment like Dist pickup coil, harness, etc, all ok. TI Module was dead.
So I acquired a replacement made by K & B through my supplier. I've had good luck with these on 2 other installations. Great product.
When we installed the new module, engine fired right up, ran okay. A few test drives, not fully tested at all loads etc.Time was tight, adjusted FI unit, loaded up on the trailer and headed for Kissimmee. Engine had a slight surge at constant speeds, and a intermittent miss at rest at any rpm range. We thought it might be FI adjustment or maybe ignition but never nailed it down and found root cause.
Car sat for 2 years while health and personal issues of the owner took over life's plans. Now things are back to normal. Time to prep the car for Kissimmee again after fixing the little judging hits, etc, but it's not running up to par.
This weekend we spent all day Saturday and Sunday diagnosing. We wanted to find if "Fuel" or "Ignition", so we swapped in a non-TI dist, fired right up, ran GREAT on test drive. No surge, clean idle, etc. Okay, FI good, it's a TI problem. We ran through the Dave Fiedler tests, all checks out. The dist has a good magnet, and replaced TI pickup coil as part of the testing 2 years ago.
I pulled ti "New" TI module out, check all internal connections, Ohmed out and wiggled wire connections through the entire harness, everything good. I had my HP Oscilloscope ready to take some operational readings, and wished we had a known good TI module to try. Well, the owner had the original AC Delco Amp sitting in a box. it was THE ORIGINAL MODULE. I said , let's try it.
I installed it in the case, rested it on the fender(it's a PITA to install in a '65) all wired up and jumpered for case-ground etc. Fired right up and ran GREAT. The 49 year old Delco Module worked perfectly. The miss was gone and the ignition was perfect.
Now........I have a 2 year old when received DOA TI module. I'm going to contact them, for 2 reasons......
- We need a backup module for the road trip to Kissimme next week. I need to get another K & B Module, install it and have the AC Delco unit as a spare for the trip. I don't know what their warranty is, and trying to reach them. I understand we should have figured this out 2 years ago, but we couldn't. Car was sleeping. Regardless, we need another one ASAP, Warranty or not.
- I suspect K & B would like this module back for analysis and testing. It's a subtle problem. It runs the engine but my gut feel is that internal module timing is at fault, causing the miss and erratic operation at speed. I should have plugged my scope in to get some data but we're strapped for time over the weekend.
Have any TI users had failures of ANY kind with the K & B TI module?
I have never heard of any faults with their products.
Rich
ps added pics, 2 of the K & B module, and of a old damaged AC Delco unit from a '67 I had on the shelf, saving for parts.
George, Thanks very much. I have a call into K & B and also to Zip to get somewhere, hopefully today. If I get nowhere by tonight I may take you up on buying yours.
Light constant surging or light miss at speed while cruising sounds like too much vacuum advance pulling in - very typical symptom of that. But - I couldn't explain why it would go away when trying the original module with your TI distributor.
Rich does K&B make it or did Electric Limited make it? I might be needing to buy one and would like to get it from the source
K&B makes it for most vendors, including LL. LL used to get another mfr'rs unit years ago. It wasn't the best. I see they have the K&B on their site now. Pics below & extra info.
Originally Posted by DansYellow66
Light constant surging or light miss at speed while cruising sounds like too much vacuum advance pulling in - very typical symptom of that. But - I couldn't explain why it would go away when trying the original module with your TI distributor.
Dan, We pulled our hair out on this. When we replaced the distributor with a points type, problem immediately disappeared. Vac can specs were identical, and both dizzys' vac cans tested. Start at 5"Hg, all in at 8"Hg. Measured vac at manifold, 11"Hg.
Went back to TI setup, problem immediately came back. Swapped the TI modules.....fixed.
It's a subtle, but noticeable failure in the module.
Light constant surging or light miss at speed while cruising sounds like too much vacuum advance pulling in - very typical symptom of that. But - I couldn't explain why it would go away when trying the original module with your TI distributor.
could be 'smoothing'/interpolation or some other aberration inherent in a new design or componets of the repro; or not.... ie: it could control the timing differently.
Okay, Ken at K & B called me back around 2:30 today. I filled him in on the failure mode.
He then said, "Lifetime Warranty, send it back and we'll get another out to you right away".
So I wrapped it up, slapped a Priority mail insured label on it, and dropped it off at the Post Office at 3:30 this afternoon. It'll be there Wednesday and I should get the replacement by Friday.
Excellent Customer Service, so any of you folks thinking about buying K & B products, kudos to them.
Also thanks to JT Stafford at Zip Products for making a call to Ken also. I bought this from Zip 2+ years ago
Rich
edit.......just a update that I received the new module on Friday just like Ken promised. All set !!!
I rebuilt those amps for years and I have found a lot of the time the problem turned out to be a bad ground to the amp case mounted to the fiberglass panel the behind the grill. here is the amp tester I built back then,
Last edited by PAmotorman; 04-13-2017 at 02:18 PM.
Wow, old thread. I forgot all about this one. I remember that test set you had, very nice.
Yes the pickup coil polarity is important and can be easily swapped if one takes the 2 terminal connector apart.
Some time ago I built a basic but effective bench test using a TI distributor to test several modules and do some experiments. I tested a original failed Delco module and was the main reason for the test setup, and curiosity. I found the failure with the Delco module and repaired it. I also tested both K&B and M&H modules for some further testing. Then my old Tek scope died. A Corvette acquaintance donated a brand new storage scope to me so I could continue my testing.
01-13-2014, 09:38 AM
K and B Special Products TI Amplifier Module
