Kerrmudgeon

To me that's top dollar for that car if it HAD the right tags. It's a bit of a hotrod with a lot of parts changed, and if you wanted to make it original would cost a ton.
..shifter, valve covers painted, wrong oil tube?, polished air filter, wheels, no caps, no ignition chrome, and who knows if it's even an original 2x4 setup. A lot of these were tossed and cobbled back together at a later date. So forget comparing it to an original 2x4 car.
To me that's a 40K car tops, sorry.

ejboyd5

Early on in this thread someone asked what is the VIN appearing on the title. I haven't yet seen an answer. That bit of information is important in assessing the problem.

By the way, the blurb from the selling dealer is quite clever in that it only says the motor number matches the frame number, but omits any reference to title or VIN tag. The dealer's own wording could be used as an argument that it was aware of the tag problem and should have disclosed same prior to accepting a deposit.

jim lockwood

Jeff is on to something here.

What is your purpose for the car? Are you buying it to flip or are you in it for the long haul to drive and enjoy?

If you plan to drive and enjoy the car for the remainder of your days then the VIN plate is a non issue as long as you get a clear title. One of my cars has a state assigned VIN and I couldn't care less; I drive and enjoy it all the freakin' time..... have for 35 years.

If you plan to flip it, you are going to run into the kind of VIN plate paranoia you've read about so far in this thread. I never will with my car, though; it's simply not for sale.

Of greater concern to me is the engine bay. It appears to have been treated to a "quickie concours" treatment with a rattle can of black paint. Too, what's with that sealed cap at the oil filler tube? How does the engine vent crankcase pressure? Why does the fresh air hose for the heater have that hump in it? What's underneath there which shouldn't be? The water pump pulley is wrong. Where's the radiator expansion tank? What's that wire hanging down from the dash? Why does it have a Hurst shifter? Those look like late model door lock cylinders. The listing claims that's a 270 HP engine but it has a low redline tach. What's with the wonky temperature gauge?

I agree that it's a $40K car, but not because of the VIN plate, or lack thereof.

Jim

Utahcarguy

I haven't seen the title yet, but I think it will have the GM number on it...I'm now also concerned about all the other stuff under the hood. What should the tach redline rpm's read with a dual carb car? They represented to me that the original engine matched a dual quad carb setup and that the engine was original to the car...so why the low rpm redline?!

Frankie the Fink

I don't know if disclosing a legitimate, state-issued VIN is really a legal disclosure issue; but certainly an ethical one. There are two dual-quad cars in '61...245hp and 270hp...look at the engine stamp pad and if the suffix is 'DJ' its 245hp; if its 'CU' then its a 270hp "solid lifter" car. The 270hp solid lifter car will have the high-HP tach (6,500RPM redline). Also be aware that many of the 270hp cars are running around now with the 245hp carbs (my car was originally until I got the correct carbs) or clone carbs off Buicks, Chryslers, etc..

Sounds like you might have had a bit of "Corvette fever" when you bought this car. I think you should avoid this car at this price and lobby to get a price reduction or your deposit back as ...but either of those concessions conceivably might not happen...

John McGraw

You know, every time a VIN tag question comes up, everybody starts getting crazy, so let's just cut to the chase!

If the title matches the assigned VIN tag - No problem.

If the title still has the original VIN, and the car has a different VIN - Big problem, run, do not walk to the nearest exit. This would not be a legal car to register in any state in the country! The dealer would be in big trouble for attempting to sell this car.


My guess is that the VIN tag and the title match, and if that is so, I would not hesitate to buy the car if the price reflected the assigned VIN.

Yes, an assigned VIN car will always bring less money, but if you buy it right, what is the problem?

Assigned VIN cars are still able to be judged in Flight judging, and can score just as high as the same car with an original VIN.

It gets back to the intended purpose of buying the car. If you want a nice car to drive, there is really no down side. You get a nice car, at a discount for the assigned VIN, and when you do decide to sell, you will have to sell at a similar discount from market. You get to own the car for less cash outlay, but the percentage of appreciation will be pretty much the same as for an original VIN car.

If however, you are looking for a car to flip, than it might not be the ideal candidate. You will still buy at a discount, and will have to sell at a similar discount, but it will sell slower, due to all the nervous Nellies that wring their hands at anything but an original VIN tag.

If the car has an assigned VIN that matches the title, it is legal in every single state, and you should never experience any issues with registration, no matter where you take it.



Regards, John McGraw

Frankie the Fink

Well - stated John!

Chuck72

Sounds like someone used a block casting number as a vin.

John McGraw

Also, as a side note. Forget about getting the state to issue a new title with a VIN that matches the frame #. They issue a different VIN # because the old VIN tag was probably lost or stolen. They do not want the possibility that two cars could pop up with the same VIN tag, so they issue a new VIN title and tag for the car, and the VIN tag looks nothing like the original tag. Even if by some miracle, you were able to talk the state into issuing the original VIN back to the car, you would still have a VIN tag that looked nothing like the original tag. If you think that the current VIN hurts the value of the car, you do not even want to contemplate what a clearly non-original tag with the original VIN stamped in it would do! A tag like this would probably get the car impounded as soon as it was inspected by the DMV in any state you took it to. The burden would be on you to prove that it was a legitimate assigned VIN.


Regards, John McGraw

DomL64

I don't want to hijack the thread but I have a similar question.
About 20 years ago, someone stole my hood, hardtop and vin plate.
The vin plate # matched everything else.
I have an original title from NJ with the original vin number on it.
Is there someone that reproduces vin plates ?
Thanks,
Dom

emccomas

For what little it may be worth

1961 VIN numbers run from 10867S100001 to 10867S110939, for a total production of 10,939 cars.

The VIN you supplied has too many digit in it. One of these digits is wrong / extra: 10867S1101014

I am guessing that the correct VIN is 10867S101014 or 10867S110014.
10867S1101014 is too many cars.

10867S101014 (the 1,014 car produced) does NOT appear in the National Motor Vehicle Tile Information System.

However, 10867S110014 (the 10,014 car produced) does appear as a registered VIN in NMVTIS.

What is the correct original VIN of your car?

AZDoug

I got California to do it. It took some thought. They even left the tag that caused the problem, on the car.

My car has three VIN tags with the original number, A GM issued red on silver tag (from sometime in the early 1960s), that was screwed to the door post, a CA tag, right under the GM tag, and a repop tag, that I affixed to the steering column, for looks.

Doug

Utahcarguy

Engine is stamped CU for a 270 HP car. It has wrong tach installed. I would change that out to the correct one. I'm not saying it's a show car, but if they fix the VIN, this being a dual carb car seems like a fair price after all the shopping I've done.

I talked to the sales guy and they are going to look into correcting the VIN to the original VIN. I should know more tomorrow.

joewill

These cars do trade hands, but at a reduced amount. .you should buy at a reduced price since you will sell at a reduced price. I think that the deal can be classified as a somewhat failure of a good faith transaction on the part of the dealer. The dealer is required to do the transaction in good faith and all transactions must have a guaranteed title. this could be grounds to get your deposit back. discuss this with the dealer using this argument. The dealer will counter that the title is valid and VIN is correct by the state standards ( it is), but you can argue the value decrease ( again, hard to prove) and possible lack of insurability.

it is unreasonable to expect a layman to do hundreds of hours of research validating every aspect of a car. The courts will expect a good faith transaction. but proving that you overpaid will be next to impossible. ask for some or all of your deposit back or a reduced price. ( not -10K like some here are suggesting, but try to negotiate to a point where you will sleep well at night)

scottydogmd

If you really love the car, check with your DMV to see if you can replace the tag with a correct facsimile, and at what cost. Just remember that any knowledgable buyer will still notice the replacement. and you'll still be dinged for value (though possibly not quite as much). Personally, if it was me, I'd walk, and chalk the grand up to experience. As stated earlier, there are too many cars out there without those issues.

John McGraw

Depending on your state and the process that they use, AG Backeast can make an absolutely beautiful repro VIN tag for your car. He has made several for me over the years, but his requirements for documentation are not negotiable. I have been able in the past to get affidavits from LEO's attesting to the fact that they have viewed the alternate VIN derivative on the frame and that it matches the VIN on the title. Without this piece of paper, you stand zero chance of getting any reputable person to make a new tag for you. I always take this approach first before I throw in the towel and go for a state assigned VIN.

His tags are amazingly good, and I know of several that have gone through flight judging without a second look.


Regards, John T McGraw

jimh_1962

I thought you already bought the car... If not, keep looking for the one:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/4376133386.html

1956 :cool almost a barn find look at the dust collecting:
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/4358886923.html

Utahcarguy

I put down a deposit and a down payment. I was supposed to sign tomorrow.

UPDATE: I spent the better part of the afternoon speaking with the DMV where the car is located (IL) and the DMV where the car is titled (AR). IL says that no matter what, they must keep the same VIN as another state gives a car on the title...dead end there.

Then, Arkansas gave it a good effort, but turns out this title was created with a bill of sale and the "GM" VIN did not originate in AR. So, they can't tell me which state gave it that VIN and since it originated in another state, they won't change it...dead end.

Then after all that, the dealer tells me the only numbers he can see on the frame are 81101014. Block says 1014 F0809.

I put a stop pay on my deposit check (arriving there today), so I should be OK there. Before anyone says that a stop pay is not a guarantee, I also moved the money out of the account and alerted my banker to not allow for an overdraft.

I spent all of last night not sleeping, but I actually feel good now walking away from this car. I fell in love with it. It was the first C1 I've ever driven. Only the 2nd Corvette I've driven.

Nowhere Man

Lesson learned from this do your homework before any money is traded

bluestreak63

That's great you decided to walk away from this one. There are others out there and you have a great resource here for when you locate the next one. Maybe even post what exactly you're looking for you'd be surprised how many members will keep an eye out.

Looks like you can get some sleep tonight...