When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Just installed our fresh 396 and got it running in the 65'. Engine runs well and idles great for about 20-30 mins, then it picks up an intermitten idle speed drop/fluctuation. The longer/warmer the car gets, the more the issue occurs. After its been running for 10 miles or so, sometimes it will die at stop lights at idle.
Initially I thought it was carb related, went through all the usual stuff, even taking a perfect running carb off of a perfect running 454, the same problem occurs, bought a new #3310 750 holley, same problem occurs.
That led me to the ignition system, it is a TI car with all new (repro) TI components from K&B. Idling with the timing light on it, watching the strobes consistency, after 10 mins, the strobe will drop out, immediately followed by an engine miss and idle drop, the strobe comes back to normal, as does the idle. I tested this with two different timing lights and it is legit. So now I am convinced that I am losing spark after the car runs a while. The TI box, harness, coil (TI specific) is all new, however the distributor is an original TI from a 67' 427/435hp.
Is there a chance that something in the distributor itself (pick up coil or magneto or something) starts flaking out when it gets hot?
I've searched a ton of threads, meaning leading to the TI box itself, (internal board) but this being a new K&B box, I wouldn't think it would be the problem. Maybe the NEW coil is getting warm and breaking down?
Any thoughts on this?
We have a 66' 327 car with TI I can borrow parts from but I believe I can NOT use the distributor from it due to a different shaft/collar on the 65' 396..(oil feeding concern)...
Kind of stumped and for what we spent to buy all new TI stuff, I didn't expect this issue.
Just installed our fresh 396 and got it running in the 65'. Engine runs well and idles great for about 20-30 mins, then it picks up an intermitten idle speed drop/fluctuation. The longer/warmer the car gets, the more the issue occurs. After its been running for 10 miles or so, sometimes it will die at stop lights at idle.
Initially I thought it was carb related, went through all the usual stuff, even taking a perfect running carb off of a perfect running 454, the same problem occurs, bought a new #3310 750 holley, same problem occurs.
That led me to the ignition system, it is a TI car with all new (repro) TI components from K&B. Idling with the timing on it, watching the strobes consistency, after 10 mins, the strobe will drop out, immediately followed by an engine miss and idle drop, the strobe comes back to normal, as does the idle. I tested this with two different timing lights and it is legit. So now I am convinced that I am losing spark after the car runs a while. The TI box, harness, coil (TI specific) is all new, however the distributor is an original TI from a 67' 427/435hp.
Is there a chance that something in the distributor itself (pick up coil or magneto or something) starts flaking out when it gets hot?
I've searched a ton of threads, meaning leading to the TI box itself, (internal board) but this being a new K&B box, I wouldn't think it would be the problem. Maybe the NEW coil is getting warm and breaking down?
Any thoughts on this?
We have a 66' 327 car with TI I can borrow parts from but I believe I can NOT use the distributor from it due to a different shaft/collar on the 65' 396..(oil feeding concern)...
Kind of stumped and for what we spent to buy all new TI stuff, I didn't expect this issue.
TI Speciality has a website that has TI troubleshooting info. Also, the owner (Dave) is extremely knowledgeable and may be able to help if no one here can help. http://www.tispecialty.com
Chevrolet also had a 6 page bulletin on TI troubleshooting. Someone can perhaps post a copy for you, or you may be able to Google it and view it on-line. It is Chevrolet Service News: Volume 36, Number 4. Dated April 1964. Title is "Servicing the Breakerless Ignition System".
Larry
Last edited by Powershift; 02-07-2015 at 08:33 PM.
Thanks Larry, I will look for the old bulletin. I have looked at the TI Specialty site..Most of the trouble shooting tips there are for no fire conditions.... Not an intermitten, hot only, idle issue..
Whats weird is it only loses fire at idle. If I set the idle at 1500 rpms, it will run smooth all day long. Set the idle at 1100 and lower and it will pick up the idle drop and occasional dying. Trying to drive the car hot is very hard, trying to keep it running at idle and pulling away from stop lights when it tries to die is tough, once rolling above 1500 rpms, it runs great and pulls strong to redline... SO I know its not a vapor lock/fuel issue....(aside from the fact I can see it lose fire at idle through the timing light)
Read all about it.. Lots of good data on the TI system but as far as diagnostics, it just states that if the issue is a misfire or intermitten run issue, to look at wiring/cap/rotor etc etc.. Basically the same stuff on TI Specialty's site. If it is a NO START condition, then it has a nice flow chart for diagnosing the issue... That doesn't help me any.
After reading about the TI amplifier box and that it is basically a big heat sink, maybe after running a length of time and the issue getting worse, maybe the internal switches or diodes in the TI amp are glitching out...Maybe it is getting TOO hot internally...?
We are gonna try to find another "known good" TI amp and swap it first, then go from there...
Coils usually fail when hot so it could be that. After you try another coil and if the problem persists, a little background and some thoughts........
Last year I helped a friend diagnose his TI system in his '65 SB fuelie. It had a new K&B Amp that we installed several months earlier. This was to replace a defective reproduction older design non K&B module that was in it. My friend got ill for a while and we never got to diagnose it for several months. It was a intermittent stumble only when not accelerating, i.e. constant RPM around 1500-2000 IIRC.
We spent much time diagnosing, even swapped fuelie units as we weren't sure if fuel or ignition. Same issue with another FI unit. We swapped harnesses, we tested them all by yanking terminals while ohming them out, verifying resistor wire, etc. Verified good grounds at the TI module/box, etc. A real bugger to try to figure out. I think on 3 or 4 visits, we put 16 hours into it to try to find the problem........a subtle but repeatable problem.
At one visit I brought my Tektronix oscilloscope over and we shot some waveforms running there in the driveway at various RPM ranges and I took some snapshots of the waveforms. I had no reference data so it was merely to get a baseline.
He found the old original GM Amp module he had as a spare that came with the car. The Power Transistors were dated 1965. I took some more oscilloscope measurements and saw some cleaner waveforms, noticeably different voltage levels, etc. We then drove the car and it ran flawlessly.
So then I talked to Ken Anderson at K&B and he asked me to return the suspect module and he'd send another out right away after he got it. BTW, Ken is a great person to work with. His products carry a lifetime warranty.
I sent the bad one out Fedex on a Monday, he got it Wednesday, he sent the new one that day and we got it Friday. Saturday the car was fixed, and ready for the trip to Kissimmee for judging the following Thursday.
Before you call Ken, I'd check and ohm out your TI box grounds to the engine ground('65 gets it's ground via the harness AND the radiator support. Then check the TI module inside the box. Check it for good connections at the 3 terminals. Also check the mount screws for the circuit board. They ground the board to the case to get gorund. Also check to be sure the 3 terminals are not touching the backside of the case cover. It's a tight fit in there.
Coils usually fail when hot so it could be that. After you try another coil and if the problem persists, a little background and some thoughts........
Last year I helped a friend diagnose his TI system in his '65 SB fuelie. It had a new K&B Amp that we installed several months earlier. This was to replace a defective reproduction older design non K&B module that was in it. My friend got ill for a while and we never got to diagnose it for several months. It was a intermittent stumble only when not accelerating, i.e. constant RPM around 1500-2000 IIRC.
We spent much time diagnosing, even swapped fuelie units as we weren't sure if fuel or ignition. Same issue with another FI unit. We swapped harnesses, we tested them all by yanking terminals while ohming them out, verifying resistor wire, etc. Verified good grounds at the TI module/box, etc. A real bugger to try to figure out. I think on 3 or 4 visits, we put 16 hours into it to try to find the problem........a subtle but repeatable problem.
At one visit I brought my Tektronix oscilloscope over and we shot some waveforms running there in the driveway at various RPM ranges and I took some snapshots of the waveforms. I had no reference data so it was merely to get a baseline.
He found the old original GM Amp module he had as a spare that came with the car. The Power Transistors were dated 1965. I took some more oscilloscope measurements and saw some cleaner waveforms, noticeably different voltage levels, etc. We then drove the car and it ran flawlessly.
So then I talked to Ken Anderson at K&B and he asked me to return the suspect module and he'd send another out right away after he got it. BTW, Ken is a great person to work with. His products carry a lifetime warranty.
I sent the bad one out Fedex on a Monday, he got it Wednesday, he sent the new one that day and we got it Friday. Saturday the car was fixed, and ready for the trip to Kissimmee for judging the following Thursday.
Before you call Ken, I'd check and ohm out your TI box grounds to the engine ground('65 gets it's ground via the harness AND the radiator support. Then check the TI module inside the box. Check it for good connections at the 3 terminals. Also check the mount screws for the circuit board. They ground the board to the case to get gorund. Also check to be sure the 3 terminals are not touching the backside of the case cover. It's a tight fit in there.
Rich
Very good info. Sounds like to me your electrical diagnostic skills are leaps and bounds over mine.....but I can check the basics. The box/harness are new, the box is grounded to the core support. I will test the grounds and ohm the box. I am very suspect of this box, another local friend with a 66' 427/425hp car said he had a new K&B TI box that would run but back fire and miss.. He swapped the box for another K&B box and it ran fine. So maybe there is something with this.
Also, I am curious if the K&B Ti amp has the solid state circuit board in it (like the Lectric Limited board) or if it has a repro of the original circuit board?
I have heard of people retrofitting the LL solid state board and solving weird issues.
My dad also has a 66' 327/350 hp car with the ORIGINAL TI box and it runs perfect, I am thinking of trying that box in the 65', however I am scared that if I have a distributor problem or some other weird problem, that I could potentially hurt the 66' TI box...That would suck.
I have on 2 occasions witnessed unusual faults with the K&B modules but this is not typical. I am unsure of the test procedure that is used in their manufacturing, but there may be certain conditions and combinations of engine hardware that may exhibit subtle flaws in the hardware or test deficiencies.
It's quite difficult to come up with a test plan to test 100% of all conditions. Thirty five years in electronics test engineering taught me that...... always a few "holes" in the test plan that we'd find out "in the field".
On this system, variations in resistor wire value, coil input impedance, operating voltage, ground integrity, distributor pickup coil impedance, pole piece(magnetic field), etc can all attribute to potential "holes" in any TI electronic circuit board operation and integrity.
What coil are you using? IIRC the K&B TI design does not require use of the original type TI coil, but this may be a concern.
The K&B design is quite superior over other designs IMO. It's more advanced that the original design with modern power transistor technology. It is not a duplicate of the original design.
If you decide to put your dad's TI box on yours, you MUST be sure the original type coil is on your car, and under no circumstances pull more than ONE spark plug wire off during any diagnostic testing. The original modules can blow the power transistors if unloaded too much.
So now that I've probably scared you away from that idea............ if it was my debug sequence and I had another car to swap some hardware around, I'd do this. I would put YOUR TI box in dad's car, to see if the same problem happens on that car. Your dad's module would rest on the bench away from harms way. Your dad's car should have the original type TI coil and that's fine too.
The hardest part of all this debug is getting at those darn TI boxes on the '65's. Worst place anyone could have ever thought of.
I found my photos from that debug session I had with my buddy on his '65.
(I error'd above. The power transistors were actually fall of 1964 not 1965) This board still works fine, but I'd rather have the K&B in there if I was going on a lonnnnng road trip, just keep the Delco in the toolbox as the spare.
Placement of the box on a '65. Way out of the way in front of the support to keep it cooler.
Original Delco circuit board:
K & B design:
Other pics from a '67 I had to diagnose also....This problem turned out to be a bad pickup coil in the distributor.
I have on 2 occasions witnessed unusual faults with the K&B modules but this is not typical. I am unsure of the test procedure that is used in their manufacturing, but there may be certain conditions and combinations of engine hardware that may exhibit subtle flaws in the hardware or test deficiencies.
It's quite difficult to come up with a test plan to test 100% of all conditions. Thirty five years in electronics test engineering taught me that...... always a few "holes" in the test plan that we'd find out "in the field".
On this system, variations in resistor wire value, coil input impedance, operating voltage, ground integrity, distributor pickup coil impedance, pole piece(magnetic field), etc can all attribute to potential "holes" in any TI electronic circuit board operation and integrity.
What coil are you using? IIRC the K&B TI design does not require use of the original type TI coil, but this may be a concern.
The K&B design is quite superior over other designs IMO. It's more advanced that the original design with modern power transistor technology. It is not a duplicate of the original design.
If you decide to put your dad's TI box on yours, you MUST be sure the original type coil is on your car, and under no circumstances pull more than ONE spark plug wire off during any diagnostic testing. The original modules can blow the power transistors if unloaded too much.
So now that I've probably scared you away from that idea............ if it was my debug sequence and I had another car to swap some hardware around, I'd do this. I would put YOUR TI box in dad's car, to see if the same problem happens on that car. Your dad's module would rest on the bench away from harms way. Your dad's car should have the original type TI coil and that's fine too.
The hardest part of all this debug is getting at those darn TI boxes on the '65's. Worst place anyone could have ever thought of.
I found my photos from that debug session I had with my buddy on his '65.
(I error'd above. The power transistors were actually fall of 1964 not 1965) This board still works fine, but I'd rather have the K&B in there if I was going on a lonnnnng road trip, just keep the Delco in the toolbox as the spare.
Placement of the box on a '65. Way out of the way in front of the support to keep it cooler.
Original Delco circuit board:
K & B design:
Other pics from a '67 I had to diagnose also....This problem turned out to be a bad pickup coil in the distributor.
before I restored it:
After:
===
Wow, great post! Thanks for the info and pics!
That's a good idea about putting the 65' box on the 66' car and seeing if it acts up... However maybe there is a chance that the 65' box only acts up based on something with the 65's distributor? Only way to know is to try.
Only other thing we've found is the two wires from the pick up coil in the distributor had two bad spots in the insulation about halfway between the distributor housing and the end plug. They are not bare on the same side so they aren't touching each other. I used some clear silicone to reseal each wire sleeve. Maybe there is a break in the actual wire there when it gets hot it builds resistance or something..?
Thinking maybe we need to send the distributor in for a full rebuild, however I would like to quantify this as the actual problem before dropping the coin.
have you hooked up an ohm meter to the pickup coil wires? moving the wires with the meter hooked might show a bad wire.
If there is a intermittent short it may show up.
Did you try swapping ignition coils yet? If so........
There is another test you can perform to do a continuity test and functional test of the pickup coil/magnet. You'll find it in the tispecialty.com diagnosis flowchart, here.... http://tispecialty.com/articles/64-65.pdf
It's at the bottom of the sheet..... Distributor Check.
When it's hot at normal temperature, even better if it's right after the engine exhibits the original problem.....While all is hot, disconnect the 2 terminal plug at the distributor. Connect your ohm meter between the 2 leads at the distributor plug. Ensure they are a solid connection with alligator clips or some permanent contact method. Disconnect the Pink wire plug to the TI harness. This is the Ign wire from the Ign switch and is a #12 Pink out of the big grommet to the right of the wiper motor. It connects to the White wire in the TI harness. This Powers the module and is a reference for the Pickup Coil in the distributor. In the harness, the Gray wire is the pulse from the distributor to trigger the TI module to energize the coil, via the Black wire which is the output of the module.
Removing the Pink wire will keep the TI module shut down for the distributor pickup coil test.
While observing the ohm meter, crank the engine for several seconds while observing the ohm meter. You should see 500 to 700 ohms during rotation. If out of spec, you have either a bad pickup coil or magnet or a intermittent connection from the 2 wire harness into the pickup coil, or a intermittent short or open in the pickup coil.
If you get a good resding, have a helper crank again while you wiggle the 2 terminal wires around and observe the meter for ant intermittent readings.
If all tests good, the TI module may be at fault, but there's more, see below at the end......"one last thing".
In one instance on a '67 TI system, I had a intermittent problem. The pickup coil tested good on the bench using the ohm meter test just spinning the rotor by hand. In the car was a different story, intermittent. After pulling the distributor and the pole piece(magnet/pickup assembly) I connected both terminals to the pickup coil, began wiggling the wires and saw the problem, a intermittent open. I dissected the pickup coil, and found a cold solder joint from the terminal wire to the micro-wire inside the coil. I re-soldered the connection, reassembled the pickup coil and the problem was solved.
Just remembered, one last thing.....I recalled being told by Ken at K&B that he has had issues with the reproduction pickup coils. He said that it has caused some problems with his modules.
Do you know what your TI distributor includes? Do you know what pickup coil is in it?
Did you try swapping ignition coils yet? If so........
There is another test you can perform to do a continuity test and functional test of the pickup coil/magnet. You'll find it in the tispecialty.com diagnosis flowchart, here.... http://tispecialty.com/articles/64-65.pdf
It's at the bottom of the sheet..... Distributor Check.
When it's hot at normal temperature, even better if it's right after the engine exhibits the original problem.....While all is hot, disconnect the 2 terminal plug at the distributor. Connect your ohm meter between the 2 leads at the distributor plug. Ensure they are a solid connection with alligator clips or some permanent contact method. Disconnect the Pink wire plug to the TI harness. This is the Ign wire from the Ign switch and is a #12 Pink out of the big grommet to the right of the wiper motor. It connects to the White wire in the TI harness. This Powers the module and is a reference for the Pickup Coil in the distributor. In the harness, the Gray wire is the pulse from the distributor to trigger the TI module to energize the coil, via the Black wire which is the output of the module.
Removing the Pink wire will keep the TI module shut down for the distributor pickup coil test.
While observing the ohm meter, crank the engine for several seconds while observing the ohm meter. You should see 500 to 700 ohms during rotation. If out of spec, you have either a bad pickup coil or magnet or a intermittent connection from the 2 wire harness into the pickup coil, or a intermittent short or open in the pickup coil.
If you get a good resding, have a helper crank again while you wiggle the 2 terminal wires around and observe the meter for ant intermittent readings.
If all tests good, the TI module may be at fault, but there's more, see below at the end......"one last thing".
In one instance on a '67 TI system, I had a intermittent problem. The pickup coil tested good on the bench using the ohm meter test just spinning the rotor by hand. In the car was a different story, intermittent. After pulling the distributor and the pole piece(magnet/pickup assembly) I connected both terminals to the pickup coil, began wiggling the wires and saw the problem, a intermittent open. I dissected the pickup coil, and found a cold solder joint from the terminal wire to the micro-wire inside the coil. I re-soldered the connection, reassembled the pickup coil and the problem was solved.
Just remembered, one last thing.....I recalled being told by Ken at K&B that he has had issues with the reproduction pickup coils. He said that it has caused some problems with his modules.
Do you know what your TI distributor includes? Do you know what pickup coil is in it?
Rich
Thanks for all of the info Rich. The distributor/pick up coil appears to be completely original. The distributor is out of a 67' 427/435hp supposedly. My dad bought it used and we just stuck it in there. Maybe the pick up coil starts "breaking down" after it gets some heat in it.
We have not swapped coils yet. My dad is supposed to hit up some of his buddies to scavenge loaner parts to test with so we don't have to take the 66' all apart if we don't have to.
make sure the black ground wire the is attached to the amp box has a clean surface,no paint there. I rebult these amps for years and tested a lot there was nothing wrong but a bad ground connection. amp tester I built back in the day for sale
Ok so my dad put the 65' TI amp on the 66', drove it for an hour and it ran perfect, no hiccups at all.. SO I guess that eliminates the TI box. We are gonna swap the coils next. The coil on the 66' is a repro TI coil but never had any problems with it, so we'll put that on the 65' and test it... If that's not it, we'll likely pull the distributor out and send it to Fielder to get it checked out/rebuilt.
If it turns out to not be anything wrong with the distributor or coil, then I'm really stumped.
Turns out the culprit was the new TI coil.. We stole the coil off of the 66' and put it on the 65', along with the 65's K&B TI box and the car ran great all day today. Idle was consistent and no dying...so evidently there is something wrong with a brand new repro coil.
We still have a few little odds and ends we need to finish, also may have a fuel delivery issue at high rpms as it seems to run out of fuel at 6k ish in 3rd... So that's my next project...But atleast now its driveable and reliable.
We still need install the shielding box, another set of valve covers and the correct orange cover hold downs but that stuff will come in a few weeks. Tomorrow it goes to the muffler shop to custom build some mandrel bent 2.5" side pipes with classic chambered 2.5" ID mufflers. Hopefully we'll get it all done in the next few weeks, just in time for the spring season.
02-07-2015, 08:24 PM
65' 396/425hp TI ignition issue... Advice pls..
This board still works fine, but I'd rather have the K&B in there if I was going on a lonnnnng road trip, just keep the Delco in the toolbox as the spare.
If there is a intermittent short it may show up. 
