67*427

Took the '67 out for a putt a couple of nights ago. When we left, it missed a couple of times and I thought that might be a warning but.... it was a pretty evening so I kept on. About 6 miles from home, it didn't want to run at all and I turned around and headed back home. About a mile later, it was dead. Pulled into an available driveway and begin checking. Plenty of fuel squirting in the (center) carb but NO SPARK! I figured the Pertronix had bitten the dust and since it's about impossible to change that on the side of the road, I called a friend and in a few minutes, he showed up with a trailer with a winch.

Got it home and pulled the distributor and converted it back to points and condenser. Put it all back together and it fired right up. Drove it a few miles and something still wasn't right. Got it back home and into the shop and started checking things outs. Tried to start it again and ..... NO SPARK. The MSD Blaster coil was the culprit! I replaced that with a new coil from O'Reilly's and it fired right up and runs great! I suspect the Pertronics is fine but, given that it is nearly impossible the replace the Pertronix on the side of the road, I'm gun shy and I think I will stick with points.

I have previously been a big supporter of electronics ignition and I will say that with a BB with 3X2's and all factory shielding, adjusting the points on the car is a GIANT PITB if not essentially impossible but given that I don't drive the car much, I think I will stay with the inherent reliability of points.

Lots of guys have made this point before but the convincing thing for me was with the Pertronix, there is no easy way to troubleshoot an ignition problem on the side of the road. With points, it's pretty obvious.

From now on, I'll carry a spare coil, points and condenser. Incidentally, this is the SECOND coil that has died on this car (in 14,000 miles) since I installed a Pertronix ignition module. I'm not saying that is the problem but the first coil (a Pertronix Flamthrower) died on the 2012 Hot Rod Power Tour and took the driver's side muffler with it when the car backfired. The MSD Blaster was supposed to be a better choice for a coil but now that has croaked as well. The original coil still works (it's my backup) after countless miles with points and condenser. Guess old Charles F. Kettering was pretty smart.......

Steve

Frankie the Fink

So - let me follow this logic.

The Pertronix was NOT the point of failure, but since you think the part that has not caused the problem might be hard to change on the side of the road you won't use it.

And if you think point-style problems are so 'obvious' read the recent thread about the guy that beat his head against the wall then finally discovered it was the condenser under the dizzy cap that was making the car run badly....certainly not obvious in his case.

In any event, stay with what you are comfortable with but indulging in the bit of sophistry above won't convince me to swap back to points.

Anyway, I've begun running the MSD Blaster 8222 epoxy filled coil for high-vibration environments - its a bit more money but much more robust (and its already painted black -- not red).

Mossy66

When I installed the Pertronix on our car, I also used a Pertronix coil, but it was the epoxy filled one. Never a problem with it. I believe they handle vibration better than the oil filled ones. (or at least that's the marketing they use) I did switch to a MSD coil when I converted to the MSD Atomic EFI, and the coil crapped out in less than a year. I went back to the Pertronix coil, and I haven't had a problem since.

I don't know about the "inherent reliability of points" though. Aren't they kind of guaranteed to fail at some point? If you had a spare set of points with you, I think maybe you would have just got home a bit later?


Gerry

67*427

Frankie,

I don't know that the Pertronix was NOT the cause of the failure. I will not say it was but I WILL say that after I installed it, I have had TWO coil failures in 14,000 miles. I have driven 100's of thousands of miles with points and don't ever remember having a total failure of the points on the road. Prior to this, I had one coil fail on a '55 Chevy and that was over 50 years ago! Use what you like but I'm going to stick with simple from now on.

sd

Randy G.

If you are talking about my thread where I changed the condenser, it was the first thing I checked based on the symptoms...with an ohm meter. I didn't "beat my head against the wall." In 43 years of Corvette ownership with points and condensers this is the first time I've seen a condenser go bad.

I think his point is, at the side of the road you can open and close points with the cap off and at least have a clue as to where the problem lies. With an electronic set up it isn't happening.

By the way, my 57 Fuelie has the original distributor with points and condenser. My 54 Corvette (6 volt) has a Pertronix set up on it because it eats points in 80 miles. Not sure why except that 6 volts is twice the amps (heat) and it trashed several sets of points, each with a new condenser. The 62 runs great with points and a new condenser.


.

Auto Gear

points are not easy; they are just what you are most comfortable with. I agree with Frankie; but Im not going to bash anyone for doing whatever makes you comfortable to drive your car. At least you're driving it; thats all that matters.

"changing points on the side of the road" is akin to the street rodder who buys a 9" ford axle because he may, maybe, someday, in a few years...want to change his axle ratio more often.

The theory has some weight; but in practice, it doesn't pan out often. Someday soon the quality of the points and condensers is going to go south..good thing you can change em on the side of the road more often. But what about batteries, serpentine belts, timing chains...There are plenty of things than can leave you on the mythical side of the road besides points and condensers.

FYI I hate roadside repairs; I almost got hit (probably killed) by a drunk while changing a tire on the side of the highway at midnight. No mas senor.

GTOguy

67*427, congratulations. I am on your side. Delco Remy coils and Delco Remy points and condensors. Reliable, foolproof. Yes, they need changing every 15,000 miles. Part of the vintage car experience. No need for 'flame thrower' coils or MSD anything. Spark is spark. There is NO horsepower gain to be had by havine electronic ignition over stock points. None. Zip. People like Petronics and HEI because it is non- maintenance and they don't understand or simply want to eliminate 'trouble prone points'. In 35 years working on cars, I've had 100 times more HEI cars come into the shop on a hook due to ignition failure than points cars. Again, congrats on breaking that nasty habit, and welcome back!!

toddalin

You could change to a Mallory HyFire electronic ignition. Mine is triggered off the points, but they carry no real current (just serve as a switch) so don't burn and go out of adjustment.

If you have a problem with the ignition, there is a "jumper plug" for the harness that disconnects the electronics and routes you back to the points in the stock fashion.

toddalin

So the coveted, high performance GM dual point distributors, which simply extend the dwell time, offer NO horsepower gain?

An electronic ignition can extend it even longer and maintain more energy throughout that duration.

Also, I can have the points so far out of adjustment (because the dwell is set too short) that I can't even start the car. But plug in the Mallory and the dwell remains the same regardless of what the points are doing and the car fires right up and you would never know the points are out of adjustment.

I keep them adjusted at the minimum recommended dwell setting so that if I do have to change over, they are ready to go. But when not called upon, the minimum setting sets the points at their furthest recommended distance and that would tend to reduce point bounce at high RPM.

So, maybe that offers no advantage over perfectly adjusted points, but how long do they remain perfectly adjusted if they have the fire the coil?

TCracingCA

Working with the higher end stuff requires the tuning to get the advantage, though very slight in the normal driving rpms.

I don't mount my coils on a vibrating/or attached to a hot engine. That just makes them prone to failure!!!!!!!

Frankie the Fink

Oooo. I'm up for a good Points VS Petronix thread. Its been what ? Three days since the last one.

Let's get it on !

dplotkin

But they do, rubbing block wear requires adjustment. Points burn because they are either a). low quality, b). get contaminated from a sloppy lube, or c). are used with the wrong value coil and/or ballast.


There was a d.) that applied to my Mom's 66 Country Squire in which I'd listen to the radio with the ignition "on" instead of ACC.


This points vs. Pertronix debate has become sufficiently long in the tooth. Those of you who have been championing and defending Pertronix for so long now can't back away, even if they fail on you! (and one day I predict they will). Kind of like giving up on your favorite team when they stop winning or do something real stupid. (See Seahawks).


As a guy with an electrical/electronics backround I love electronic ignition, I think it is in the top 10 improvements made in automobile engineering along with fuel injection, radial tires and disk brakes.
Coil on plug? What a concept!


But I don't like Pertronix. I don't like the idea of a plastic capsule housing an IC and a switching transistor that must switch a large current while buried inside a hot distributor. I don't think it rejects enough heat and I believe when they eventually fail, that's why.


Chrysler pioneered the first widely used, full production across the board electronic ignition system in 72. By 73 every Chrysler car used it. It was a box the size of a deck of cards with a big old heat sink where the switching transistor (itself in a metal case) was mounted. It was screwed to the fire wall or radiator support where it could reject some heat.


They still sell it, the same one! They hardly ever fail.


Yet despite all the grand standing to defend a Pertronix and its silly named coils, many experience failures. Search the net, you will find the failures. Reason enough never to use one in my book. Too small, too hot, mounted in the wrong place. Even GM's HEI had plenty of distributer mounted module failures. I had one leave me on the side of the road in a 83 Buick Skyhawk. (I know, lousy car to begin with but still....)


Dan

67*427

I wasn't trying to start another points VS. electronic ignition argument. My point was that it is much easier to troubleshoot an ignition problem with points than with MOST electronic ignitions. My other point was that my Corvette did many thousands of miles with points and condenser before I put in the Pertronix. After the Pertronix, I lost a Flamethrower coil (no surprise there) and then an MSD Blaster, all within 14,000 miles. When the MSD Blaster went paws up, it's hard to NOT suspect the only thing that was different which was the Pertronix. Maybe I'll have another coil fail with the points but it will be a lot easier to troubleshoot and certainly easier to fix, "on the side of the road".

sd

Frankie the Fink

I'm a journeyman avionics technician (4 year apprenticeship under the Philco Avionics Program) with a double E and Computer Science degree. As far as epoxied ICs in a hot environment I take it you haven't worked around much avionics...

The Pertronix is Hall cell based and you have them in a bunch of hot, nasty places in your modern car already. The Pertronix failures I've seen are on older versions with minimal protection or because somebody dicked up the install...

Let me tell you about some of those earliest big-three electronic ignitions (circa early 70s) - they were awful. Buddies would bring them into the avionics shop to get fixed. Cold solder joints, lifted leads, sub-par components, and on and on. Lot's of QA issues at first...

I have NO problem with points, other than people (some anyway) claiming they've never heard of a points setup falling - what BS

65 vette dude

IMHO.........you are wise beyond your years Steve. Points are reliable, cheap, and they will never leave you stranded on the side of the road on a rainy night, waiting for the dreaded tow truck.

Frankie the Fink

Really ? So you know of nobody that was put afoot by points/condensers failing ? I certainly do; and there have even been a few threads on here about cars running too poorly to drive due to the old-style ignitions crapping out

DansYellow66

I think it's kind of a right brain - left brain thing. Some folks (like me) are mechanically and visually oriented. I love to take stuff apart and see what makes it tick and what I can do to optimize it - whether rebuilding a carburetor or distributor or working over the sear on a revolver. Electrical circuits - diodes, resistors, capacitors, relays, etc, don't do anything for me because they defy disassembly, examination and tinkering. Other folks love control circuits, mother boards, test meters, and dabbling with volts x amps = watts. I don't think this will ever be settled.

dplotkin

No, I was a phone company guy. My electronics were up on poles, down in man holes and in switching centers and microwave huts. Avionics electronics are not quite the same animal as automotive electronics, your stuff was a much higher grade and tolerance, it had to work, similar but not the same as mine.

Pertronix is not avionics grade, nor Ma Bell grade.

Chrysler electronic ignition was not troublesome at all and you couldn't fix it anyway, it was potted in plastic goo as were most of them in the 70's anyway..

Ford had a lousy electronic ignition, Duraspark I think they called it.

Anyway, I agree with you that points absolutely fail and can leave you stranded, but they are easily diagnosed and fixed.

Dan

MikeM

I have no credentials knowing anything about electronic ignitions except in 1978, my wife had plenty of problems with a new car that kept dying on her and the dealer couldn't fix it. But I do know, in 100's of thousands of miles of driving on points, I never had to make a road side repair. Only had one bad coil too but I didn't have to fix it alongside the road. Just had to push it to start the engine when it got below zero. In any case, if the points were about to cause problems, there was always symptoms ahead of the fact with plenty of time to make corrections

Easy to diagnose, easy to fix. Parts available on every corner if required. I just never had to have to do anything to my points on the road.

Try that with your flame thrower coil or your purtytronix.

'Course, some people can't recognize when points are starting to close or get dirty and/or couldn't change them out anyway or even adjust them. They'd just write a check for a purtytronix and call the tow truck! If you fall in this category, you're in deep doo doo anyway so maybe the purtytronix is something you should look at.

Buy quality points and coil like Echlin equals no problems. Buy purtytronix and read about problems daily here on the forum. Your choice.

I put new points in my engine when I put it in the car ten years ago. I haven't had the cap off since but I did check the dwell and it was a couple of degrees off on the dwell meter so I adjusted it in about two seconds and shut the hood.

I have no problem whatsoever with the ignition systems that are OEM in new cars and trucks in the last 30 years. They're gread. But purtytronix isn't designed like the current modern systems. Just kinda' like a band aid that the sticky is not so good.

GTOguy

Well said, Mike. Those of us who are in tune with the vehicle we're driving know when it's time for some regular maintenance. No big deal, and part of the experience. I'm planning on replacing my non-correct FI dual point distributor with a non-correct '63-'73 single point distributor because I happen to like vacuum advance on a street driven engine. I have no worries about power loss 'downgrading' to a single point set-up. With the proper points, with the correct spring tension, these set-ups are reliable and bulletproof.