C1 VIN problems
03-08-2016, 02:12 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
Understand the trauma involved here. However, I find it hard to believe that a "title" is worthless as it is the document for transfer and required for registration. Tampering with vins results in some serious consquences so I am assuming the rightful owner if all on the level has nothing to worry about in this legal regard. I agree that you don't have to over muscle the DMV so that you end up in a chock hold! If the rightful title owner cannot register his car in his state because someone else has his same vin on a questionable nonconforming car, I would be looking for an attorney. I am not one.
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03-08-2016, 04:29 PM
#42
Safety Car
Most of the time when one of these issues arise it is because while there may be a title it was never cancelled/transferred or registration was not kept current and thus became dormant and disappears from the system after a period of time. Having an old title that does not have current registration is worthless in the eyes of the government, anybody that does not transfer a title into their name or keep registration current is just asking for an issue down the road.
His old TX title was not active for many years, and thus got "purged" by the TX DMV. They did however find it in the purged records when he contacted them.
I'm a friend of the OP and we've spent much time trying to get this resolved. He has spoken to a Lawyer and gotten some advice, but hopefully this will get resolved in a reasonable time without getting to that next level.
AZ must remove it's erroneous title from the NMVTIS database for it to be cleared so he can then present his valid TX title to FL to get his new title.
Then he can drive his car after a 43 year sebatical. He did however get to drive it on to the trailer a few weeks ago when he brought it home.
03-08-2016, 05:32 PM
#43
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I am assuming the rightful owner if all on the level has nothing to worry about in this legal regard.
Part of the problem is bureaucracy's inherent inertia, or lack of momentum. Arizona's predictable response is that the guy in the other state has the problem and is the one who should jump through hoops. Hey, our guy has a car and a title, we're happy, leave us alone. The fact that nobody at the AZ DMV thinks THEY have the problem even after being told a '59 VIN is on a '50 car tells you they apparently DGAS.
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-08-2016, 06:11 PM
#44
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St. Jude Donor '12
Online tool can help decode this VIN number and get a full history report of almost any vehicle. You can also check a VIN to search auto parts and find out the market price of both new and pre-owned cars.
I am the owner of a 1959 Corvette. I purchased and have had in my possession the title and the car since 1964 (over 52 years) It has been titled in Texas all this time and registered through 1973. At that time I ceased registering it because I started a Frame Off restoration which was delayed by new job and family. It was on the bucket list for retirement. The past 2 years have been quite active in restoration only to find my VIN has been compromised. When I went to Texas they found my original title in the dead file and was going to refresh it and send a certified copy. A few minutes later they said they could not as it had been titled in 2007 in Arizona. This was 2 months ago and very little progress. Texas said they would restore my title but AZ had to remove it from the NMVTIS.
AZ has inspected the car and located NO visible VIN. They will not discuss with me, however I discovered the AZ title number, and the owner.
The car I discovered came from California when it was re-titled in AZ.
The VIN is for my car J59S10----. The same VIN is on the AZ title but the description is 1950 Chev 2 dr. DMV acknowledges that but will not describe the car as to fiberglass or metal body, etc. How did a car get a new title in AZ without a visible VIN. My car has the original visible VIN on the pillar post and a Florida VIN verification by Florida Sheriffs dept. Arizona requested the hidden VIN (on the frame under floor board. This would require cutting out floorboard or lifting body off the frame. I have suggested they first identify what kind of car they are looking at. A 59 Corvette is not a similar body to a 1950 Chevrolet.
AZ has inspected the car and located NO visible VIN. They will not discuss with me, however I discovered the AZ title number, and the owner.
The car I discovered came from California when it was re-titled in AZ.
The VIN is for my car J59S10----. The same VIN is on the AZ title but the description is 1950 Chev 2 dr. DMV acknowledges that but will not describe the car as to fiberglass or metal body, etc. How did a car get a new title in AZ without a visible VIN. My car has the original visible VIN on the pillar post and a Florida VIN verification by Florida Sheriffs dept. Arizona requested the hidden VIN (on the frame under floor board. This would require cutting out floorboard or lifting body off the frame. I have suggested they first identify what kind of car they are looking at. A 59 Corvette is not a similar body to a 1950 Chevrolet.
Last edited by vettsplit 63; 03-08-2016 at 06:15 PM.
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-08-2016, 06:18 PM
#45
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I am having a little trouble understanding exactly what you did. If you have the original Texas title, why would you need a certified copy? I would think if you have the original, and they allegedly had it in the "dead" file as the same document number , then there is no problem. All you had to do is take your original title to the tax office, and perhaps the last time you registered it, and get new plates. This doesn't pass the smell test. Get an Officer from auto theft division (they know how the system works) to come out and fill out a VTR-68. He will be able to certify using your frame numbers, vin tag. Then it sounds like Arizona has the problem.
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-08-2016, 06:52 PM
#46
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-08-2016, 07:50 PM
#47
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So, If I am reading into this correctly, he OP no longer has a title for this car (guessing lost or misplaced), and since he last had it titled in Texas, he went to the Texas DMV for a replacement title, for which he was denied because according to the DMV the car is now registered in Arizona...and now without a title (in hand), Florida wont let him register the car.
kinda makes me wonder about the adds I see for vintage car titles, and who's they may be.
kinda makes me wonder about the adds I see for vintage car titles, and who's they may be.
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-08-2016, 07:57 PM
#48
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St. Jude Donor '12
Maybe I misinterpreted it, but I didnt get that he had lost his title. And did not pick up on the move to Fla. i would go back and register my Texas titled car in Texas
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-08-2016, 08:00 PM
#49
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Not trying to argue with folks because we all are very old and wise--nobody said it would be easy. As I see it, if he doesn't do anything then nothing is going to happen. It is unfortunate for him but I bet he wins out in time.
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-08-2016, 08:06 PM
#50
Safety Car
He has his original 1964 TX title. I have seen it. It's real.
He called TX DMV to check in with them as it had been a very long time.
Then he got the bad news about the AZ title.
He called TX DMV to check in with them as it had been a very long time.
Then he got the bad news about the AZ title.
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-08-2016, 09:09 PM
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Not sure if that means AZ has to remove theirs from the NMVTIS BEFORE Texas will restore the title, or if he means even if TX restores it FLA will not allow a transfer until they do.
What gets me is that we're not dealing with another similar Corvette here. we're talking a regular Chevy some 3 years before the first production Corvette was made. It's even possible the actual VIN of the '50 was somehow entered wrong, as opposed to a deliberate attempt to use the OP's Vette number. Face it - if you were going to attempt a fraud, would you try it with a number you know is way off, or would you try to get as close as possible? With so glaring and obvious a discrepancy, I'm amazed that AZ is taking a hard line rather than just looking at the facts.
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-08-2016, 09:53 PM
#52
Safety Car
I think it is ridiculous that the OP has a title and Texas will not "honor" it, but he should eventually win out. What I don't understand is Texas (NV?, FL?) needing to "see" the frame VIN when he has a legitimate one visible on the tag on the car. Cut a hole, not my car. Here's the vin, suck up state!
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-08-2016, 10:38 PM
#53
It seams crazy that there are states that still keep track of mileage on old cars. Here in Missouri ANY car older than 10 years is exempt from recording mileage. Even if you do fill out the mileage on an old car the state will not enter the data on the title.
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-09-2016, 07:34 PM
#54
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"She returned to the DMV with the ACTUAL title and they notified IN to invalidate the title in that state and issued her a new title with the original sequence number on it."
This statement regarding 029 is not quite correct. I followed this issue closely from the Indiana end of things.
One state telling another state what to do with their vehicle titles isn't something that we would actually see happen very often.
Florida did not, and could not issue a new title for 029 as long as the Indiana 029 title was in effect. The oldest OOPS - correction NEWEST title on record is the "official title of record".
Now, many are aware that the Indiana 029 car was a "made up" car with either a fake VIN tag or no VIN tag.
The holder of the Indiana title for 029 was facing some difficult questions. He voluntarily surrendered the Indiana title to the State of Indiana, which is actually the proper procedure when a vehicle is destroyed, etc.
It was only after the Indiana title was surrendered that the Florida title could be issued.
If the Indiana title has not been surrendered, this would have most likely ended up in civil court, as the Florida owner would have had to take legal action to resolve her claim on the car / VIN.
Part of the problem is that the NMVTIS is a federal database, but the titling of vehicles is a state activity.
Issues like this don't come up often; the NMVTIS is designed principally to record title branding (flood, total, fire damage, etc.).
NMVTIS is a result of Katrina, and the flood (pun intended) of flood cars on the market after Katrina.
On a related note, if you have an old car sitting around that hasn't been titled / registered since Jan 1, 2010, GET IT DONE. Once your VIN is in the NMVTIS, you are secure.
NMVTIS officially came into effect on 1/1/2010. Many states were voluntarily participating prior to that date. Indiana and Florida were two of the states that were participating prior to the official date.
All states are required to input all VIN related transactions (tag renewal is NOT a VIN related transaction) as of Jan 1, 2010, but they were NOT required to input data in their systems prior to that date.
This statement regarding 029 is not quite correct. I followed this issue closely from the Indiana end of things.
One state telling another state what to do with their vehicle titles isn't something that we would actually see happen very often.
Florida did not, and could not issue a new title for 029 as long as the Indiana 029 title was in effect. The oldest OOPS - correction NEWEST title on record is the "official title of record".
Now, many are aware that the Indiana 029 car was a "made up" car with either a fake VIN tag or no VIN tag.
The holder of the Indiana title for 029 was facing some difficult questions. He voluntarily surrendered the Indiana title to the State of Indiana, which is actually the proper procedure when a vehicle is destroyed, etc.
It was only after the Indiana title was surrendered that the Florida title could be issued.
If the Indiana title has not been surrendered, this would have most likely ended up in civil court, as the Florida owner would have had to take legal action to resolve her claim on the car / VIN.
Part of the problem is that the NMVTIS is a federal database, but the titling of vehicles is a state activity.
Issues like this don't come up often; the NMVTIS is designed principally to record title branding (flood, total, fire damage, etc.).
NMVTIS is a result of Katrina, and the flood (pun intended) of flood cars on the market after Katrina.
On a related note, if you have an old car sitting around that hasn't been titled / registered since Jan 1, 2010, GET IT DONE. Once your VIN is in the NMVTIS, you are secure.
NMVTIS officially came into effect on 1/1/2010. Many states were voluntarily participating prior to that date. Indiana and Florida were two of the states that were participating prior to the official date.
All states are required to input all VIN related transactions (tag renewal is NOT a VIN related transaction) as of Jan 1, 2010, but they were NOT required to input data in their systems prior to that date.
Last edited by emccomas; 03-10-2016 at 07:27 PM.
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
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Maddog1 (03-09-2016)
03-09-2016, 09:53 PM
#56
Understand the trauma involved here. However, I find it hard to believe that a "title" is worthless as it is the document for transfer and required for registration. Tampering with vins results in some serious consquences so I am assuming the rightful owner if all on the level has nothing to worry about in this legal regard. I agree that you don't have to over muscle the DMV so that you end up in a chock hold! If the rightful title owner cannot register his car in his state because someone else has his same vin on a questionable nonconforming car, I would be looking for an attorney. I am not one.
Yesterday just after noon I left the Florida DMV with a fresh Florida title with my car's VIN. Common sense prevailed with some very dedicated and reasoning DMV personnel. I went to the DMV with intent of locating the highest level management who would listen. My plan was to subject my car to the highest level of scrutiny and inspection available. I could not get Arizona to even discuss the case with me.
Before I was sent to a distant inspection station I was sent to another DMV operator who I told my situation to. She pulled up the NMVTIS and noted the 1950 description of the car with my VIN. She made the determination that could not be my 1959 Corvette as I had full documentation for over the past 52 years. She left for a few minutes and came back with a big smile. I rushed home and picked up my original Texas title, a Florida VIN verification inspection report I had done previously for Arizona, and my proof of insurance. Within minutes I had a Florida title. I asked if the NMVTIS would show two cars with the same VIN. She did not know what would happen, but she said that they were not the same cars by description. I will check in a few days to see what the report shows. Common sense prevailed. I must say that Texas DMV had some very helpful staff trying to help also, and pushing Arizona. The fact I was not there in Texas to get them in the inspection circuit made it a little difficult. My case was very obvious once I found someone to listen and reason. I have an old 1956 Triumph motorcycle that had a similar history as the car. It was titled in New Mexico and had not been tagged since 1973. New Mexico had no record of it in their files, but lucky for me I still had a paper title. It now has a Florida title. Keep your old classics current!
Thanks to everyone for the help and information. Been a rough journey but ended well! And a special thanks to Rich, who has been working with me on this car for the past year.
03-10-2016, 12:37 AM
#57
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Glad to hear things are looking up, and amazed that you found somebody at a DMV who could - and would - actually cut through red tape! I HOPE you have heard the last of this!
03-10-2016, 09:30 AM
#59
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St. Jude Donor '12
Not to get off track from the OP's original problem, and I am glad that he apparently has solved his problem. Part of which in my opinion, is what happens when you have overlapping Federal/State bureaucracies. I will be honest; I had never heard of NMVTIS before. Only been in existence and as a result of hurricane Katrina.
NCIC is the National Crime Information Center, and is what we use when looking for stolen cars. The DMV's of other states will show if a car is currently registered, but if you have a car that you have owned for multiple years, say in restoration, and is not in the NMVTIS system, then it doesn't show up. I have one such that has been in my Texas titled possession since 1993, and it doesn't. Just another layer of .gov red tape. To hell with them, I have a Texas title, and they will honor it when I get ready to put this one on the road.
NCIC is the National Crime Information Center, and is what we use when looking for stolen cars. The DMV's of other states will show if a car is currently registered, but if you have a car that you have owned for multiple years, say in restoration, and is not in the NMVTIS system, then it doesn't show up. I have one such that has been in my Texas titled possession since 1993, and it doesn't. Just another layer of .gov red tape. To hell with them, I have a Texas title, and they will honor it when I get ready to put this one on the road.
Last edited by vettsplit 63; 03-10-2016 at 09:31 AM.
03-10-2016, 09:52 AM
#60
Pro
A very valid statement, IF that Texas title is in your name and it is not an open title that has yet to be transferred. Simply because open titles can become dormant, a request for a duplicate title because the original has never been executed/transferred will void the open title if that request is made.