If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use
09-05-2002, 08:49 AM
#21
Melting Slicks
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Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)
...i had the '65 327 and '66 427 engines out, sitting side-by-side, both bodies also side-by-side and would agree with everything that theOman said about the differences...you can get the correct weld-on bb radiator supports at any of the mid-year resto houses.....'though, based on my experience, if you go to a decent show and talk to one of the large aluminum radiator vendors, i think you could walk off with a properly sized and ported big block radiator with the small block mounts - you may want to make some calls first.....a vendor that's new to me (probably not to others) is AFCO, a racing parts supplier - great selection of aluminum radiators and, thank god, radiator fan clutch eliminators with either 5/8 or 3/4" shaft bushings
09-05-2002, 10:35 AM
#22
Melting Slicks
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Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Solidlifters)
Thanks for the heads up on the Chevelle headers. I always wondered if it would work. I suppose the right craftsmen can make alnost anything work but obviously your experience was with a less than favorable result.
09-05-2002, 10:39 AM
#23
Melting Slicks
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Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (NuckingFuts)
I considered doing this to provide backup cooling for my smallblock so when the A/C is added I had some reserve capacity. I have seen the brackets in the ZIP catalog and the Corvette Central catalog, I think.
They are just a simple "L" bracket that attaches to the rad support. I think two holes per bracket and you are ready. You would likely want to pull out the rad support to position things and I would be careful that you get the radiator in as close to a stock location as possible so the hoses fit.
They are just a simple "L" bracket that attaches to the rad support. I think two holes per bracket and you are ready. You would likely want to pull out the rad support to position things and I would be careful that you get the radiator in as close to a stock location as possible so the hoses fit.
09-05-2002, 10:44 AM
#24
Melting Slicks
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Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (ghostrider20)
I am not so sure about that direction. Certainly you can get the power out of a small block and the overall balance of the car is better with the SB (assuming your BB goes in with iron heads) but consider this. Getting BB like power and torque out of a SB engine inherently requires a little more aggressive components in the SB. You mention 11 to 1 compression for example. A 9.0 to 1 BB will grind out as much if not more power and not have a big cam, require race gas and so on. Not to say you cannot get the power from a small block it just becomes a matter of which avenue you want to take.
09-05-2002, 11:44 AM
#25
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)
Heh, Geting some grate info on this thread. Keep it going, I'm printing all this info out for digestion. You can'tget this stuff from a magazine Q&A or TV car how to do it show.......Thanks. :flag
[Modified by Viet Nam Vett, 4:44 PM 9/5/2002]
[Modified by Viet Nam Vett, 4:44 PM 9/5/2002]
09-05-2002, 12:32 PM
#26
Melting Slicks
Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)
After reading your post and your quaint (phonetic) spelling..... are you still hung over from last weekend..... or you starting this weekend early..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Dijestion..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
[Modified by achapman, 11:32 AM 9/5/2002]
Dijestion..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
[Modified by achapman, 11:32 AM 9/5/2002]
09-05-2002, 12:46 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (achapman)
Tea Many Mar-Tune-ies........ :lol: :lol: :lol:
09-05-2002, 01:41 PM
#28
Team Owner
Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)
This is a re-post from one of my postings:
Thanks everyone for the positive feedback. This project started out with a budget in mind that went out the window. While I'm sure I could have cut cost by using non-corvette mid year era parts when it came to brackets, exhaust, cooling system, just to name a few. Every part I thought I could re-use turned out to not work. My goal from the start was to end up with a BB Vette that was orginal in apperance (or close to it) and did not have the look of a bunch of missed matched parts put together. Looking back on this project I pass along the following thoughts:
1. While I feel the cost to value ratio is still in the re-sale ballpark, I would advise anyone who is thinking about doing this to really work the numbers and plan for the worst.
2. I did all the work myself except for the engine rebuild (just did not have time for that) and can tell you that paying labor for this type of project will be very expensive. Not sure what I would charge someone to do this. Bottom line is, many hours went into this.
3. Would I do it again?? Yes, NO Fear!!
For 7vettes: The engine had been started and run only 2-3 min just to make sure it would start. I'm still waiting for the side exhaust and a few parts to finish hooking up the PCV line. The engine was built by Precision Machine.
For Mike: The suspension had been rebuilt a few years ago and a thorsion bar added at that time. The car is setting level and looks good. When I get it on the road I will be able to test this more. I have a set of BB coil springs if I feel I need them.
I have put about 25-30 miles on the car sence that post. It runs out great and sounds sweet. Very pleased with the out come. Ready for Paint!!
Thanks everyone for the positive feedback. This project started out with a budget in mind that went out the window. While I'm sure I could have cut cost by using non-corvette mid year era parts when it came to brackets, exhaust, cooling system, just to name a few. Every part I thought I could re-use turned out to not work. My goal from the start was to end up with a BB Vette that was orginal in apperance (or close to it) and did not have the look of a bunch of missed matched parts put together. Looking back on this project I pass along the following thoughts:
1. While I feel the cost to value ratio is still in the re-sale ballpark, I would advise anyone who is thinking about doing this to really work the numbers and plan for the worst.
2. I did all the work myself except for the engine rebuild (just did not have time for that) and can tell you that paying labor for this type of project will be very expensive. Not sure what I would charge someone to do this. Bottom line is, many hours went into this.
3. Would I do it again?? Yes, NO Fear!!
For 7vettes: The engine had been started and run only 2-3 min just to make sure it would start. I'm still waiting for the side exhaust and a few parts to finish hooking up the PCV line. The engine was built by Precision Machine.
For Mike: The suspension had been rebuilt a few years ago and a thorsion bar added at that time. The car is setting level and looks good. When I get it on the road I will be able to test this more. I have a set of BB coil springs if I feel I need them.
I have put about 25-30 miles on the car sence that post. It runs out great and sounds sweet. Very pleased with the out come. Ready for Paint!!
09-05-2002, 02:09 PM
#29
Melting Slicks
Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)
Mark,
We've had the ZZ502 installed in a 67 for a little over three years now and it's a great engine. Most of the key issues have been mentioned in other responses and cover what you will be facing. I thought I would mention a few observations based on my experience.
- One option for cooling is to use an aluminum radiator from Be Cool as they have one which will fit into a small block radiator support. I also added twin Spal electric fans mounted to brackets I made. I believe Be Cool also now make a "modular" line which comes complete with the fans and shroud. Just tell them what you are doing and they can make sure to have a system which will handle it. With this setup you can use stock style radiator hoses.
- Headers were hard to find at the time I did ours because of the aluminum head exhaust port shape and the head bolt locations. After talking to several header makers I finally found Sanderson who was willing to make what I needed. They even went to the extent of buying an engine to get the header flange correct. They fit perfectly and we needed only to make up the connections from the collector to the side exhaust. Sanderson should have them as part of their regular line of headers by now.
- The clutch linkage was one of those surprises that will happen on projects like this. At the time the adapter plate wasn't available (Scroggins-Dickey has them now) so we made up a hydraulic setup using McLeod and Wilwood pieces. While it works great, it was much more work than using the stock setup and, if I ever did it again, I would stick with the mechanical linkage. I used an externally balanced flywheel and Centerforce clutch/pressure plate which has worked well. The flywheel matches the high torque mini starter and has never had a problem turning the engine over even when hot.
- The fuel pump was a relatively simple change and I used a Holley unit mounted near the gas tank. You only hear it when you turn the ignition on but the side exhaust has a way of drowing out any sound it might be making. :yesnod:
- The ZZ502 comes with an HEI distributor but it doesn't have a tach drive. There is a company somewhere that converts them but I chose to go with an MSD billet tach drive unit. Then, another one of those unknows popped up regarding the distributor gear. I just happened to be reading something about the engine when I came across the reference to a "mellonized" gear. I had never heard of that but on further research found that the regular gear would be eaten alive by the steel roller cam. MSD didn't make one so we took the stock HEI gear (.492 diameter hole) and opened it up to .500 to fit the MSD shaft and it solved that problem.
- If you have power brakes there will be a clearance problem with the stock booster. After shopping around I finally found a company that would make a smaller diameter unit with the right volume to work with the four disc setup. Stainless Steel Brakes in New York made it up and used mid-year brackets. I have referred several others to them. Depending on who you talk with there some will say they can't do it. But if you persist, and find the right person, they can do it.
- The weight of the big block is one thing to consider. A change to big block springs would be a good idea. I used the Vette Brakes "Performance Plus" system designed for the big block but there are less involved ways to approach this if you want to stay with a stock style spring arrangement.
- The engine comes with an aluminum dual plane intake manifold and Holley 850 carb. Hood clearance becomes an issue even with a big block hood. I went through several attempts before ending up making one almost from scratch. To get a rough clearance measurement, I took one of those expandable magnetic pickup tools and taped it into the carb. Then, after padding the top of it, we slowly closed the hood and we had the distance from the carb flange to the underside of the hood. From this I was able to make a unit that fit. There are dropped base air cleaner units that would also likely work but it's something to consider when installing this engine. By the way, when looking at the RamJet engine later I understand the height of the FI unit is 11 1/2" from the top of the block (at the intake manfold) and think this would require modifying the hood itself.
- An aluminum water pump is also part of the package. While I believe the 454 has the long style unit, the pump with this engine may work in a Corvette although I didn't use it. I used one from Edelbrock along with an assortment of March serpentine style pulleys.
- As with most things, when you change one thing others will be affected down the line. In this case the increased torque will put a strain on the other driveline components and they need to be in great shape. Some have gone to the extent of strengthened driveshafts, differentials and yokes, half shafts and transmissions. I decided to use a Richmond 5-Speed which has worked well. It all depends on how you intend to drive it. It should stand normal street use but if you intend to drag the car this would be an area to consider.
Well, as I heard someone once say "I've already told you more than I know" so I'll stop here. Those are the main issues I can recall from our installation. As with any project of this sort there are many ways to handle the various problems you encounter but this is what worked for us. I hope that this helps you and others considering a swap. If there is anything I have left out, or anything that needs to be clarified, just drop me an e-mail. I'd be glad to try and help.
Rich Lagasse
We've had the ZZ502 installed in a 67 for a little over three years now and it's a great engine. Most of the key issues have been mentioned in other responses and cover what you will be facing. I thought I would mention a few observations based on my experience.
- One option for cooling is to use an aluminum radiator from Be Cool as they have one which will fit into a small block radiator support. I also added twin Spal electric fans mounted to brackets I made. I believe Be Cool also now make a "modular" line which comes complete with the fans and shroud. Just tell them what you are doing and they can make sure to have a system which will handle it. With this setup you can use stock style radiator hoses.
- Headers were hard to find at the time I did ours because of the aluminum head exhaust port shape and the head bolt locations. After talking to several header makers I finally found Sanderson who was willing to make what I needed. They even went to the extent of buying an engine to get the header flange correct. They fit perfectly and we needed only to make up the connections from the collector to the side exhaust. Sanderson should have them as part of their regular line of headers by now.
- The clutch linkage was one of those surprises that will happen on projects like this. At the time the adapter plate wasn't available (Scroggins-Dickey has them now) so we made up a hydraulic setup using McLeod and Wilwood pieces. While it works great, it was much more work than using the stock setup and, if I ever did it again, I would stick with the mechanical linkage. I used an externally balanced flywheel and Centerforce clutch/pressure plate which has worked well. The flywheel matches the high torque mini starter and has never had a problem turning the engine over even when hot.
- The fuel pump was a relatively simple change and I used a Holley unit mounted near the gas tank. You only hear it when you turn the ignition on but the side exhaust has a way of drowing out any sound it might be making. :yesnod:
- The ZZ502 comes with an HEI distributor but it doesn't have a tach drive. There is a company somewhere that converts them but I chose to go with an MSD billet tach drive unit. Then, another one of those unknows popped up regarding the distributor gear. I just happened to be reading something about the engine when I came across the reference to a "mellonized" gear. I had never heard of that but on further research found that the regular gear would be eaten alive by the steel roller cam. MSD didn't make one so we took the stock HEI gear (.492 diameter hole) and opened it up to .500 to fit the MSD shaft and it solved that problem.
- If you have power brakes there will be a clearance problem with the stock booster. After shopping around I finally found a company that would make a smaller diameter unit with the right volume to work with the four disc setup. Stainless Steel Brakes in New York made it up and used mid-year brackets. I have referred several others to them. Depending on who you talk with there some will say they can't do it. But if you persist, and find the right person, they can do it.
- The weight of the big block is one thing to consider. A change to big block springs would be a good idea. I used the Vette Brakes "Performance Plus" system designed for the big block but there are less involved ways to approach this if you want to stay with a stock style spring arrangement.
- The engine comes with an aluminum dual plane intake manifold and Holley 850 carb. Hood clearance becomes an issue even with a big block hood. I went through several attempts before ending up making one almost from scratch. To get a rough clearance measurement, I took one of those expandable magnetic pickup tools and taped it into the carb. Then, after padding the top of it, we slowly closed the hood and we had the distance from the carb flange to the underside of the hood. From this I was able to make a unit that fit. There are dropped base air cleaner units that would also likely work but it's something to consider when installing this engine. By the way, when looking at the RamJet engine later I understand the height of the FI unit is 11 1/2" from the top of the block (at the intake manfold) and think this would require modifying the hood itself.
- An aluminum water pump is also part of the package. While I believe the 454 has the long style unit, the pump with this engine may work in a Corvette although I didn't use it. I used one from Edelbrock along with an assortment of March serpentine style pulleys.
- As with most things, when you change one thing others will be affected down the line. In this case the increased torque will put a strain on the other driveline components and they need to be in great shape. Some have gone to the extent of strengthened driveshafts, differentials and yokes, half shafts and transmissions. I decided to use a Richmond 5-Speed which has worked well. It all depends on how you intend to drive it. It should stand normal street use but if you intend to drag the car this would be an area to consider.
Well, as I heard someone once say "I've already told you more than I know" so I'll stop here. Those are the main issues I can recall from our installation. As with any project of this sort there are many ways to handle the various problems you encounter but this is what worked for us. I hope that this helps you and others considering a swap. If there is anything I have left out, or anything that needs to be clarified, just drop me an e-mail. I'd be glad to try and help.
Rich Lagasse
09-05-2002, 03:31 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (richscorvettes)
Rich, Thankyou for that most excellent Post. The information you relayed is priceless!! It's like 20/20 Hind sight now becoming 20/20 Foresight. Everybody so far has given excellent info on this topic. The amount of time and money that can be saved on this kind of a project is deffenitly proportional to the answers give here by our members.
Any one eles who would like to add there$.02 Please feel free......... :flag
Any one eles who would like to add there$.02 Please feel free......... :flag
09-05-2002, 09:39 PM
#31
Melting Slicks
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Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (richscorvettes)
VNV, I had forgotten but Rich is correct about the water pump on the crate bb, I did have to swap the long snout one on the engine with a short snout (bought it from Summit).
09-05-2002, 09:55 PM
#32
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Denney)
Thanks Denney, I'm printing all this out and putting it next to my Wallet!!
[Modified by Viet Nam Vett, 8:55 PM 9/5/2002]
[Modified by Viet Nam Vett, 8:55 PM 9/5/2002]
09-05-2002, 10:50 PM
#34
Melting Slicks
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Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)
I'm printing all this out and putting it next to my Wallet!!
09-05-2002, 10:56 PM
#35
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Denney)
You Know Denney...............I could go the other way and drop in a Ricer 2.0 Front wheel Drive with Nitros..But Then what Forum would I go to???
And 396 Rat I could always Leave a Piston out of No 7 Cyl in that 502 to get down to 396 C.I.D. :lol: :lol: :lol:
[Modified by Viet Nam Vett, 9:56 PM 9/5/2002]
And 396 Rat I could always Leave a Piston out of No 7 Cyl in that 502 to get down to 396 C.I.D. :lol: :lol: :lol:
[Modified by Viet Nam Vett, 9:56 PM 9/5/2002]
09-05-2002, 11:04 PM
#36
Melting Slicks
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Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)
VNV, before you even CONSIDER the ricer route, consider buying this 68 Mercury Colony Park 10 passenger station wagon from me... It even has NJ plates on it right now!
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/drivevette/68Mercury.jpg
[Modified by Denney, 3:08 AM 9/6/2002]
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/drivevette/68Mercury.jpg
[Modified by Denney, 3:08 AM 9/6/2002]
09-05-2002, 11:11 PM
#37
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Denney)
Heh That's a Cool Ride...............But if you live in MD. Whats up with the jersey plates. And how many miles on that Lead Slead????
