HS Vette

Vin # 30837S116683

Here is the link to the seller that previously owned the SWC
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-Chevrol...-/191716141220



Here is the link to the current seller who happens to be Classic Cars of Sarasota
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Co...m=201613344495

Your thoughts ?

1snake

6 months ago it was advertised with a replacement engine and now it has the "matching numbers" engine. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it's a restamp. Funny how the latest seller doesn't post a pic. of the stamp pad.

mblake101

This is the same firm that offered for sale a 67 silver/red L79 coupe a couple of years ago. They advertised it as a very rare limited production original car. I did some research and found the car actually possessed a Lynndale Blue trim tag. The owner of the place said he wasn't aware of that. Two weeks after our conversation he modified the eBay description of the car, and it then miraculously acquired a silver/red trim tag. Sooner or later his crap is going to catch up on him.

62corvette

Hugo-
Good catch!!!!

rfn026

Years ago we assembled a number of real stamps and a number of re-stamps. We then had a group of senior NCRS judge try to determine which were the fakes. Basically they missed a lot of the time. Good re-stamps are that good.

Just think about all of the counterfeit L88s and '57 fuelie cars. Some of the counterfeits have Bloomington Gold certificates. Yep - they're that good.

The only solution is paperwork. You want paperwork with the car. Even that can be manufactured but most shops don't go that far. Yet.

Richard Newton
Jacks and Jackstands

mattnSD

Just out of curiosity...who's "we"? Im assuming if you use the word "we", you include yourself in this group you speak of. It takes a lot of effort to "assemble" restamped cars just for a fun test for NCRS judges. Let me guess...you "disassembled" them after the study? Pretty sure that study never happened. And I'm even more sure that you don't want to be associated with fake cars in a public forum like this.

90sundevil

Why would he be afraid to be associated with fake cars when he is the one exposing that even the NRCS cannot tell the difference from a original car and a fake. He is not selling or faking cars just getting a few together and presenting them to judges. From all the stories I have read on this forum about restamped cars and false trim tags it should not be that hard, this thread even shows one.

And he is 100% correct on paperwork but even that can be falsified, this is just more information for the prospective buyer to look for and verify.

mattnSD

"Assembled" can be taken in many ways. I don't know the guy from Adam but "getting a few together" to compare would have been more clear.

John BX NY

Before I spent big money on an advertised original engine car I would pay for the services of the expert who has years of experience and an extensive picture reference library.

vettebuyer6369

Just for discussion's sake, if the first ad says they had a 63 replacement motor and the second ad said the numbers matched, I would not necessarily have an issue. If people would understand that "numbers match" mean the numbers on the pad match the numbers on the VIN, and do not necessarily mean the engine is "original," they would have less problems when considering cars.

However, in this particular case, the second ad says this:

"... has been looked at at and know untampered. engine pad had broach markings with clear stampings..."

Outside of the unintelligible English, I think they are making the point that the pad has been examined by "somebody" (??) and is original without actually using those words. That's a reach seeing how it would seem they are the restampers. That's pretty hinky.

63split63

Too bad we are all nuts about having numbers matching, original born with , bla bla bla . It sure takes the average guy out of the market .
This is what happens when big money gets involved in anything . I just bought a puppy, they wanted $ 200.00 extra fore paperwork ! I passed on the paper .

65GGvert

And so did the puppy!

MOXIE62

Now wait a minute, who pissed on the paper, your or the dog.

R66

Exactly, If there is more money to be made with fraud, it is accepted as a good business practice and not a crime in our fine Capitalistic country.
I am new to Corvettes, and went nuts with the numbers for a couple of months as R66 has all of the numbers (but are they real???). Also, as the car had set for a number of years, it could have been determined a BARN FIND. I learned here on the forum that I ruined the car by washing, waxing, also by cleaning, and painting the engine, fixing the trans, new clutch, etc.
That's when I determined I am not a Corvette type I gear head, I am a driver. Now that I have given up the paranoia, I am loving the hell out of driving it. By the time I spent thousands restoring it, it would be worthless as every C2 out there is "Numbers Matching" with original Documentation.

427Hotrod

There's lots of folks playing with collecting numbers who have no idea what a Vette runs or drives like.

The operative word is "collecting". That means putting it on a shelf (in a garage) to look at and show off. Like never taking the toy out of the box so you don't mess up the original packaging. Those folks never know what it's like to play with the toy.

I'll play with mine and have fun with it. There's a lot of "mismatched" stuff on it...who cares...it's fast!

JIM

R66

Don't get me wrong. I love the perfectly restored cars and have great respect and admiration for the owners who spent countless hours and $$$s recreating the Picasso quality art that these old cars deserve. They deserve the bragging rights. They don't deserve sharing those bragging rights with the fraudulent clones.
I also can't blame them for hiding them away and protecting them. I pity them for not being able to drive them without fear of losing their cherished possession to an accident, theft, or vandalism.
I also have the same respect and admiration for those that drive and enjoy the "Ugly Sisters" and "Resto Rods" that would have been "Junkyard Queens" if not taken in, updated, modified, and driven for enjoyment by those that don't try to pass them off as an all original "Miss America".

rfn026

The existence of a market for any kind of valuable object almost always encourages the production of counterfeits. It happens with drugs, banknotes, and designer handbags.

Clones are nothing new. They've been around for decades. Ask about how many Mercedes SSKs have been cloned.

Then we had the guy in Switzerland that was doing Ferrari GTOs. He ended up with a bullet in his head.

Clones are really common in the art world. The really skilled people break into your home and hang the clone on the wall and leave with the original. Most owners seldom notice the difference.

We haven't had too much of a problem in the Corvette world because the cars aren't worth that much. Why would you clone a $500,000 Corvette when you could clone a $10 million Ferrari?

Some people feel that half of the international art market consists of fakes. That makes Corvette collecting a pretty safe thing by comparison.

Richard Newton

Procrastination Racing

Richard, I think we probably had this conversation at Cypress Gardens with Vette Net about 20 years ago.

It is easy to make a Corvette. All the pieces exist. Almost everything bolts on or off. Everyone is an expert, so when they see the car, they "know" it is correct. And it takes a lot less initial investment. Back then, you took a $20,000 car, a $5000 engine, a couple thousand in labor, and suddenly you had a $40,000 or more car. Nice profit for a week's work or so. They were all built by Average Joe workers on an assembly line and with even a bit of effort, most can do the same in a decently equipped garage, unlike handforming panels and creating parts from scratch and so on with some of the exotic cars.

In this case, they bought a split window for $70,000, rebuilt (maybe) the spare engine for $2500, did a bit of custom machine work on it (stamps), spent a couple hundred in labor changing engines, and look to make $25,000 profit at least.

1snake

All it takes is one uninformed/naive buyer and the "creator" of the car makes a profit. The best defense is knowledge. Get it, hire it, or keep your money in your pocket.

desertpilgrim

Picky, picky, picky......especially when the seller went all-out to upgrade to 1964 seat belts.....