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Yup, that car did not leave the St Louis plant with an L88 engine in it.
I know a lot of folks want to believe it did though.
I will politely disagree based on a day of clarity talking to Dick and the cold start, not having the choking capability of a street carb, because it had the large Holley! When they were trying to fire it, he remembered pulling the strange air cleaner to get to the carb! But I actually do have thoughts that the aluminum heads weren't actually on it!!!!!! But I do believe it was a HD or Competition engine! They did balance and blueprinted it when it got to Penske's little shop is what I think I remember, and I think the heads got delivered later! Something else I tried to get out of Dick personally! I have spent a lot of time with Guldstrand sitting talking his racing stories! He should have remembered fancy aluminum heads, and he obviously wasn't definitive on that! Travers told me that Penske had two of those aluminum headed engines! I have had more Traco done work than any member on this entire forum after Guldstrand left us!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 07-29-2016 at 12:50 AM.
At some point I'll have to relate the story Denny told me about the Duntov cam. I can't verify it's true but then again a lot of these old stories can't be verified.
One summer when I was in college my buddy got a fuelie coupe with solid lifters and a PG. NCRS would tell you that car never existed. It helped that his dad was CEO at Chevrolet.
Then there was my grandfathers Riv that had a 455 cid engine with twin fours. That would never get by the judges today.
"As with any dedicated race car it is tough to tell what is original, since they are constantly being changed, and restoring this car back to it's original St. Louis-built configuration would lose all the racing modifications and heritage, so most will restore such a car to a specific configuration at some point in time, and this car is restored to its Sebring '66 configuration.
Duke
I dont think this car ever existed in it's current clear coated show puff configuration. It would be more authentic as a banged up worn out old race car in my opinion
At some point I'll have to relate the story Denny told me about the Duntov cam. I can't verify it's true but then again a lot of these old stories can't be verified.
One summer when I was in college my buddy got a fuelie coupe with solid lifters and a PG. NCRS would tell you that car never existed. It helped that his dad was CEO at Chevrolet.
Then there was my grandfathers Riv that had a 455 cid engine with twin fours. That would never get by the judges today.
Richard Newton
These types of GM insider stories are the ones that don't generally get much print! I heard this guy did camshaft development work! The 30/30 development, the fuel injection developments, the Duntov cam creation in the latter 1950's, etc. I have a lot of articles written on this stuff from back on the day, and especial later in Vette Vues of the 70's and 80's! Even Corcette News etc! Which I have complete collections! Thanks for contributing more stuff!
Like with me, I was at Traco or buying/talking at Guldstrands and me knowing general Corvette history/racing history, my ears perk up if I was hearing something good or a tall tale! If the story was of sonething juicy, you bet your azz that I asked questions! I probably have had over 150+ hours talking topics and his racing with Dick and maybe 20-25 hours with Travers at Traco mainly! I wish I would have had tape recorders!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 07-29-2016 at 11:28 AM.
I dont think this car ever existed in it's current clear coated show puff configuration. It would be more authentic as a banged up worn out old race car in my opinion
Ya, I probably would have found some old lacquer!!!
Penske cars were meticulously prepared, but not clear coated! Viewing these in person many times, some of these cars disturb me, with changes from period correct! At least the car still looks like a race car, just all too beautiful and pretty!
TC do you have a link that tells the history of Traco engines. A quick Google search didn't render the results I was looking for.
You probably found a bunch of food trays!
Traco work in the 60s/70s was a favorite of the magazines! Articles is the best source of what they were doing! Then side stories in books with the Topic being Can Am, Penske, or such would be the next best! There is a book called Raceman about Travers! My sitting with him mainly was visiting with my father as a teenager all into racing and they talked like two females powdering their noses in the ladies room! I would listen, but most of my paid customer visits were mostly with Jones and the latter crew! I knew Al Bartz and he talked about his Traco days and a book is out on his story! I have these books and pretty much most of the articles on Traco! I hunt for that stuff! Being a Dana Chevrolet car owning family, also Mann Chevy cars in the family, Dana used Traco for engine work, Guldstrand shop right there with Traco so I would buy at Guldstrand and pop into Traco to keep my face familiar! My Father did advertising work for Roger Penske and my brother serviced his private jet and has flown him a few times! My Father being a car and racing fan sought out direct mail marketing accounts with racers! He would drive his hot Vettes to these businesses and for his meetings having did advertising for Parnelli Jones, Carrol Shelby, and other big venture car related accounts! He got free race tickets from these guys for the family, pit passes, suite invitations at the tracks constantly!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 07-29-2016 at 02:36 PM.
So Traco was based in CA and was a independent engine shop that had access to GM prototype engine parts? And they supplied all the top Chevy racing teams in the late 60's
So Traco was based in CA and was a independent engine shop that had access to GM prototype engine parts? And they supplied all the top Chevy racing teams in the late 60's
They were one of the best! Their history goes way further back doing Champ cars at Indy! All competitive Can Am Chevrolet engines were done by either Traco or Bartz their former employee based out of the valley, two blocks from my Father's direct mail marketing job! They worked as an arm of Chevrolet Engineering, Traco crew and Travers was at Daytona with Penske on behalf of Chevrolet! But remember Chevrolet wasn't racing!!!!!!!
GM farmed stuff out to the race shops for development! Bill Thomas, Smokey Yunick, grumpy Jenkins, Jim Hall, Traco, Keith Black, Etc etc etc etc.!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 07-30-2016 at 11:32 PM.
Miles Collier might refer to cars such as this Penske car as Historical Fictions. They're lovely but the cars never existed in that state.
He makes the comparison to Williamsburg VA. Williamsburg is a wonderful place to visit and you can have a great time there. Keep in mind though that Williamsburg is fictionalized version of colonial life.
The Colliers and Simeones of the world believe that the history of the car must be maintained. Restoration essentially removes all of the car's history.
Now there are cases where the car is so far gone that restoration is the only option. In this case we don't know the condition of the McKay car prior to the restoration.
When Miles Collier acquired his Grand Sport the car had been given a really shiny coat of paint. And, a few other things such as Wilwood brakes. This meant the car has to be restored. He was very careful to replicate the original finishes on all of the various components.
When you make the decision to restore a car you have a series of decisions. Are you going to restore the car to the way it actually was? Or, are you going to create a fictionalized version of the car?
These decisions are especially difficult with a race car.
Miles Collier might refer to cars such as this Penske car as Historical Fictions. They're lovely but the cars never existed in that state.
He makes the comparison to Williamsburg VA. Williamsburg is a wonderful place to visit and you can have a great time there. Keep in mind though that Williamsburg is fictionalized version of colonial life.
The Colliers and Simeones of the world believe that the history of the car must be maintained. Restoration essentially removes all of the car's history.
Now there are cases where the car is so far gone that restoration is the only option. In this case we don't know the condition of the McKay car prior to the restoration.
When Miles Collier acquired his Grand Sport the car had been given a really shiny coat of paint. And, a few other things such as Wilwood brakes. This meant the car has to be restored. He was very careful to replicate the original finishes on all of the various components.
When you make the decision to restore a car you have a series of decisions. Are you going to restore the car to the way it actually was? Or, are you going to create a fictionalized version of the car?
These decisions are especially difficult with a race car.
My preference would be the Patina with class act of Collier's Cunningham's, and Simeones! But that car is a show car, but I still like it!
The car I don't like and should be one of my favorites is the LeMans 1967 L88 Racer which looked like a stock Corvette immaculately restored for NCRS and then someone put decals on it! It had zero race patina or thought of dirtying it up some! I can't even put my figure on exactly why I hated it, when I saw it!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 07-30-2016 at 11:45 PM.
I think Kevin is coming around. He has a two page ad in the latest NCRS Driveline featuring the '66 Penske big block racer. It partially reads "Featured here is the 1966 Development L88 Corvette originally owned by Roger Penske... It's nationally recognized as one of the most important Corvette's [sic] ever manufactured."
That's certainly a more accurate and informative summary description than "first L-88", and I have stated in the past that I consider it as significant as the Grand Sports, but there is only one, and it was the prototype/development car that proved the L-88 (and the other HD options) as worthy of endurance racing, which lead to the release of the L-88 package as a RPO in 1967.
I think Kevin is coming around. He has a two page ad in the latest NCRS Driveline featuring the '66 Penske big block racer. It partially reads "Featured here is the 1966 Development L88 Corvette originally owned by Roger Penske... It's nationally recognized as one of the most important Corvette's [sic] ever manufactured."
That's certainly a more accurate and informative summary description than "first L-88", and I have stated in the past that I consider it as significant as the Grand Sports, but there is only one, and it was the prototype/development car that proved the L-88 (and the other HD options) as worthy of endurance racing, which lead to the release of the L-88 package as a RPO in 1967.
Duke
In my very brief Corvette Race Car Registry Facebook experiment, I encountered Kevin MacKay for the second time in my Corvette travels and helped give him some records about his 1967 L88 SCCA racer that he did not have. He seemed very polite and appreciative and a decent guy! From that short interaction, I would say that he is very interested in the histories and authenticity of the records and the cars he is associated with!
What I got in return, was the satisfaction of doing that in front of the so called other experts faces! Having information from a very long association and accumulation of records and literature that they can't match individually!
As for the top C2 models, the Penske racer is at the very top based on Class victories in FIA and a continuing competition history in SCCA. Other C2 cars ranked at the top would be Hooper's 63 Z06 first C2 race winner, the 67 LeMans car just because it was the only C2 to ever go, the Serial #004 Grand Sport based on its accomplishments etc.!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 07-31-2016 at 06:52 PM.
I agree with your assessment of Kevin. I meet him and saw the car over 15 years ago at the NCRS National Convention in Monterey. He had a several-inch thick notebook of documentation on the car, but no build sheet.
I explained to him that early in my career I was a production engineer (Pontiac), and that prototype parts were not installed on production lines because those lines are the revenue centers for the corporation, and doing anything to slow down that revenue steam will get you thrown out by the plant manager, and that includes senior executives!
I also pointed out the Corvette news article that clearly states that a Traco-built engine was installed before qualifying as I previously mentioned in this thread, so, clearly, the engine installed on the St. Louis line was only used for practice.
Practicing with the Tonawanda-built L-72 made perfect sense to get the car sorted out because with the racing exhaust system that was installed in Penske's shop it was only 50-60 HP shy of the L-88, so it would have been no slouch on the track.
The scenario I described earlier in the thread is most likely what happened based on my understanding of the design, development, release processes, and actual experience in plants.
I know a lot of guys want to think that Duntov and his elves were running around the production line installing special parts, but that was never the case. In fact it's the quickest way to get the plant manager a union grievance and you will be banished from the plant.
Once development work is completed and parts are released there is at least one job that goes down the line as a pilot build. Likely the first '67 L-88 was the pilot model since the L-88 didn't involve too many changes from regular production, and that car would have been sold to the public. It was the "first [production] L-88".
Kevin's car is unique because it was the one and only L-88 engineering development and test car and referring to it as anything less is historically incorrect and shortchanges the car's significance.
One thing that I've always been curious about is the title history of the car. Penske was a Chevrolet dealer and clearly must have had a development contract from Chevrolet engineering, which included Penske receiving and installing prototype parts like the cold air induction hood system that was installed at his Pennsylvania shop.
The easiest way to get him a car was for Penske to order a L-72 coupe with C-48 and all the HD options, which had just been released. Of course his dealership would have been invoiced and the car would have remained in the ownership of GM until the invoice was paid. So maybe the development contract included reimbursement for the invoice, or did GM retain ownership?
If Penske Chevrolet did own the car he could have kept it on MSO and didn't need to title it. But he did sell the car after Sebring, so Penske Chevrolet would have owned the car, and the new owner probably would have applied for a state title, but as long as it was never to be road driven it could have stayed on MSO forever with only "Bills of Sale" for change of ownership.
I did read that he actually bought GS #2 for the Sebring race, but sold it shortly thereafter, but maybe the contract reimbursed him. No doubt the 427 installed was another Traco-built engine with L-88 prototype parts to further test and prove the package.
Remember that corporate edict prevented Chevrolet from having any direct involvement in racing. They needed "plausible deniabililty", and the fact that Penske was an "independent businessman" met that requirement, and the above argument also supports the scenario that Penske Chevrolet bought the car (likely with the invoice price buried in the development contract) and Chevrolet never wanted to see it again.
I will politely disagree based on a day of clarity talking to Dick and the cold start, not having the choking capability of a street carb, because it had the large Holley! When they were trying to fire it, he remembered pulling the strange air cleaner to get to the carb! But I actually do have thoughts that the aluminum heads weren't actually on it!!!!!! But I do believe it was a HD or Competition engine! They did balance and blueprinted it when it got to Penske's little shop is what I think I remember, and I think the heads got delivered later! Something else I tried to get out of Dick personally! I have spent a lot of time with Guldstrand sitting talking his racing stories! He should have remembered fancy aluminum heads, and he obviously wasn't definitive on that! Travers told me that Penske had two of those aluminum headed engines! I have had more Traco done work than any member on this entire forum after Guldstrand left us!
Just from curiosity, why do your "I actually do have thoughts", "I do believe", "what I think I remember", etc. mean MORE than anyone else's? Having "more Traco work done than any member" means exactly nothing with regard to what was done 50 years ago. Chevy engineers of that era knew who was who and where to go; there was a reason Edelbrock did the work on the Dick Jess car, that Smokey was involved wuth the Motoramic '55, that Rosenberger was close friends with Bruce Crower, etc
I agree with your assessment of Kevin. I meet him and saw the car over 15 years ago at the NCRS National Convention in Monterey. He had a several-inch thick notebook of documentation on the car, but no build sheet.
I explained to him that early in my career I was a production engineer (Pontiac), and that prototype parts were not installed on production lines because those lines are the revenue centers for the corporation, and doing anything to slow down that revenue steam will get you thrown out by the plant manager, and that includes senior executives!
I also pointed out the Corvette news article that clearly states that a Traco-built engine was installed before qualifying as I previously mentioned in this thread, so, clearly, the engine installed on the St. Louis line was only used for practice.
Practicing with the Tonawanda-built L-72 made perfect sense to get the car sorted out because with the racing exhaust system that was installed in Penske's shop it was only 50-60 HP shy of the L-88, so it would have been no slouch on the track.
The scenario I described earlier in the thread is most likely what happened based on my understanding of the design, development, release processes, and actual experience in plants.
I know a lot of guys want to think that Duntov and his elves were running around the production line installing special parts, but that was never the case. In fact it's the quickest way to get the plant manager a union grievance and you will be banished from the plant.
Once development work is completed and parts are released there is at least one job that goes down the line as a pilot build. Likely the first '67 L-88 was the pilot model since the L-88 didn't involve too many changes from regular production, and that car would have been sold to the public. It was the "first [production} L-88".
Kevin's car is unique because it was the one and only L-88 engineering development and test car and to refer to it anything less is historically incorrect.
One thing that I've always been curious about is the title history of the car. Penske was a Chevrolet dealer and clearly must have had a development contract from Chevrolet engineering, which included Penske receiving and installing prototype parts like the cold air induction hood system that was installed at his Pennsylvania shop.
The easiest way to get him a car was for Penske to order a L-72 coupe with C-48 and all the HD options, which had just been released. Of course his dealership would have been invoiced and the car would have remained in the ownership of GM until the invoice was paid. So maybe the development contract included reimbursement for the invoice, or did GM retain ownership?
If Penske Chevrolet did own the car he could have kept it on MSO and didn't need to title it. But he did sell the car after Sebring, so Penske Chevrolet would have owned the car, and the new owner probably would have applied for a state title, but as long as it was never to be road driven it could have stayed on MSO forever with only "Bills of Sale" for change of ownership.
I did read that he actually bought GS #2 for the Sebring race, but sold it shortly thereafter, but maybe the contract reimbursed him. No doubt the 427 installed was another Traco-built engine with L-88 prototype parts to further test and prove the package.
Remember that corporate edict prevented Chevrolet from having any direct involvement in racing. They needed "plausible deniabililty", and the fact that Penske was an "independent businessman" met that requirement, and the above argument also supports the scenario that Penske Chevrolet bought the car (likely with the invoice price buried in the development contract) and Chevrolet never wanted to see it again.
Duke
Duke, I agree with you, again. (2nd time in one week)
Something else that's slightly off topic, but interesting is the fact that the new L88 engine was actually scheduled, and built for full size 1966 Chevrolet passenger cars. The 1st L88 engines had cast iron heads for two reasons. First, the new AL heads weren't quite ready for the new engine and also because the L88 engines were also designed for NASCAR racing so weight wasn't as important.
Duke, I agree with you, again. (2nd time in one week)
Something else that's slightly off topic, but interesting is the fact that the new L88 engine was actually scheduled, and built for full size 1966 Chevrolet passenger cars. The 1st L88 engines had cast iron heads for two reasons. First, the new AL heads weren't quite ready for the new engine and also because the L88 engines were also designed for NASCAR racing so weight wasn't as important.
the cast iron head high compression engines were called "heavy duty" not L-88 in 1966 as I have the parts list here supplied to me by GM.
07-29-2016, 12:43 AM
Thank You to all for the history lessons!!! 
