TCracingCA

OK we could probably go to your profile to see what color your car was, if pictured. So we sit in suspense of which L88 you actually saw and a potential Dealership if you have it, would be useful! Like the car that came from Zone 43 (Connecticut and Massachusetts if my memory is working this morning) , I don't think that Dealership has been identified yet (but you said Michigan, so that will remain a mystery), the exact dealership (zone 43) at least to me is a guess based on which dealers where performance oriented or had the clout to get such a car back then. So Michigan and I had family living there, but I am rusty on where Battle Creek is, so I am looking it up to see how close to the known Michigan based L88 this Battle Creek is? You could be solving one of the great mysteries of the Corvette world, because a few dealerships are unknown, and some where picked up at the factory (like the Yenko one, I had to remove Yenko Chevrolet from my notes to be accurate, because Dave Morgan went and got it) or shipped from there like with the Hussein car, by sharing just a little bit more-- color and dealership where this car was seen.

You first popped up on the forum in 2006 with that 1968 L88 engine and this is your 10 year anniversary on the subject. So I will be the first to wish you happy anniversary.

-vet

"14m 263" (1965)

TCracingCA

That was the prototype for the 1966 Competition cars. This is the car I shared with everyone in a past recent thread and here that had the 8000 rpm tachometer. It will be cool to see that special tachometer again!

Here is part of the post I removed from this thread earlier, where I had just began listing known M22 transmission cars!

I think we should account for M22 transmission cars, starting point 29 made 1965! Some of the 1966 cars had M22s that were dated 1965, probably from Zoras stock! I have found both 1965 and 1966 Part numbers, but I don't think I have found a true accurate 1966 M22 count! I am just going to go 1 thru 29!

1- Proving Ground Prototype License Plate 1 3M 923 (possibly?, my opinion is it doesn't have one, this was just the prototype for the production big blocks.

2- Gorries Chevrolet Blue car (Controversially claimed to be the 1st Production car with an M22.
3- Proving Ground Prototype License Plate 1 4M 263 (this was a Competition car with the 8000rpm tachometer
4- Penske Daytona/Sebring L88 Racer
5- Penske Grand Sport Roadster (Sebring)
6- Whims/Yenko #8 White Sebring claimed L88 Racer, I have to re designated it above, but it could still be an HD car! Claims it was a CEC engineering test car and was returned after that race.
7- Cornelius/Brown/Boo 1966 Daytona Racer #67, not an HD or Not an L88, but got an M22
8- Wintersteen Grand Sport Roadster (got an M22)
9- Bill Towers Green L88 1967 Prototype (would have gotten it M22 in 1966)

Tyler Townsley

The chassis mods done by GM rngineering as a result of 65 Sebring experience. Not sure why it was not put under a 65 but the 1966 car was built in Oct 1966 tested and sent to a dealer in Washington and 'club' raced on the west coast. It has a stock vin but interestingly is still on a MSO so it was never 'sold' through the dealer chain. I believe all the M22s that surfaced in Oct 65 had the vehicle vin it was going in. These transmissions were ordered/purchased by Duntov in such a way that the bean counters would have missed that 'racing' parts were being built at that time. I believe the owner of said car has the documentation on where these transmissions went. His information comes from research of work orders he found in the tech center archives. It includes a picture of Duntov driving the car in a 6 taillight configuration,

Tyler

TCracingCA

Thanks for the share, this would not be the 1 4M 263 prototype!!!!!!!!!!! That car was being run around later part of 1965 leading up to Penskes L88 at the beginning of the year! Car 1 4M 263 was used in the Car Driver 12/65 Road test! That would be the infamous 12.8 ET that shows on a lot of Muscle car lists!

I am trying to figure out if that first Whims car did the 1966 Sebring with aluminum heads, because the Penske cars didn't! I need to get the SCCA records out figure out when that car might have crashed! Penske was approached at Sebring to run Group 7 with sponsorships! He in April 1966 got rid of both cars to find the Lola T-70 acquisition! This left the 1st Whims car for development and SCCA test running! They I assume were trying to solve the oil starvation and the aluminum head issues! So the date of that car's claimed crash is super important! With a date of being built of October 1966, maybe that event "a crash" caused them to have to slap together a test mule! But then the claimed 1966 Best Photo L88 roadster, how would that have fit into the plan, if they had a different car as the test prototype! I have thought the Best Photo car might have been the final checking out for aluminum head production! I have to get into the race records to see what and who was running with each! I had these out a few years ago, but just looking for these special cars! I haven't per se went month to month to month and who what and where were interesting cars running! I need to get the event scope of the Whims car running and overlap it with like the Best a Photo Corvette! Need to pull out the CECs and production change paperwork and all of those clues as to what might have led to such a bastard car to be assembled!

Man if your friend shared those M22 records, that would unbelievably cause leaps and bounds on what some think is the most significant cars supplied with the Transmissions and subsequently collateral information on other pieces of this puzzle! So paperwork of those specifically exists?? I'll be damn!

The northwest? Interesting! First operation running a hot pinched down set of side Exhausts were the Alan Green guys!

Hey do you have driver name for that car competing in the Northwest, because when I finally do get a chance to pull out SCCA records, I would like to look for this car by who was driving it!

TCracingCA

Ps everyone, I have also started a race attendance record for the Chevrolet Top guys like Zora! Most of the time if such guys were present, they probably had a stake or interest in something going on the track!

427 Sidepipes

Sorry to be a little off-topic, but this conversation has mentioned some cars that relate. Question to the old racing fans... was it common to install a day/night mirror for racing in the mid 60's? The common/current belief is NO day/night mirror was installed in 1966 Corvettes at the factory... only as a dealer installed option. So why do cars like the 1966 Daytona (picked up at the factory) and the Car & Driver road test vehicle (1 4M 263) clearly have day/night mirrors? This always intrigued me... take a look at some images:

Daytona 1966 - Car #6:








Sebring 1966 - Car #9:




Car & Driver 1965:








Also, I was wondering if you have seen this 1967 'preproduction' L88 engine in the past (recently released from the GM archives)? Nice details with part numbers... maybe for a passenger vehicle?



NOTE: Some images are from the REVS Digital Library... thousands of GREAT pictures (especially from the west coast.)
If you haven't visited, it is worth searching (though the search feature does need some help, and often is slow loading).
You can be specific with races, photographers, dates, etc... check it out!

-vet

The six tail light configuration was also seen on some of the 1967 Corvettes that Chevrolet built for Bob Wingate.

Jan25

I believe I have read several times in literature that the L88 package made the AM-FM radio option unavailable, but this engine still has ignition wires shielding.

TCracingCA

These types of shares help speed up assembling this type of history! There is just too much to post up!

The Day/Night mirror why not use it, it was in a good spot and worked in differing light conditions!

For the 1965 year there was known to have been 24 cars with M22! Then 39 heater delete and 41 big tank cars, but race competition only a very small handful! They were still thinking of just getting the product out there and the customers will put them on the track!

The Noland Book has good pictures of the 1 3M Prototype or pilot car believed to have been. Vin # 00046!

TCracingCA

I won't necessarily call Sebring 1965 a development for the big block cars! Zora contacted th Sevadjian group, specifically Delmo very last minute, to send him the xxxx1 engine for installation into GS #003 No.1 (Delmo, Dave Morgan, and Sevadjian Sr) ! So it was an engine test of a MKIV prototype unit! Definitely iron heads! Wintersteen actually helped by Penske put a special built Traco 364 cube unit into their team car GS #005 no.2 (Wintersteen/Goetz/Diehl). The Chevrolet 327 was getting punched out by then! The other two Corvettes entered by Yenko's team (Yenko/Bushell) and Boo's team (Boo/Robertson) were 1963 FIA conforming small block cars! The fifth Corvette was just a privateer small block effort of Wynenga/Jackson! This was kind of on response to the 1964 Nassau appearance of the Turd Cobra with big block power! Penske at this Nassau event had won three races in that Grand Sport with a special built Traco engine.

But when following the racing records, you can see the major players lining up, who were getting or would be getting Chevrolet back door stuff!

Ps this 1965 Sebring event was the rain flooded event that was won by the Chaparral 2A car!

TCracingCA

Most of all of this is in books, but not necessarily correlated to the development and timeline of the chain of events (this happened, then that , and then this!)I am a timeline guy, and pull in the race and records guy! So we are applying all of these pieces to assemble this story!

desertpilgrim

The 1 3M 923 coupe was a "pilot", most likely not an M22, as was cvt 194677S100003, a '64 body with hand-laid "gills" etc and sporting fender badges for "427 Mark IV" or some such - now resides in OK after years in MI.

TCracingCA

Thanks, I forget about that #00003 car!

I haven't studied or read the histories on the Mako Shark cars in quite awhile! I do believe one M22 went there? I think one of these got an early 427? I have the literature to check this! Just lazy today!

jimgessner

YOU SAY ''The other two Corvettes entered by Yenko's team (Yenko/Bushell) and Boo's team (Boo/Robertson) were 1963 FIA conforming small block cars! The fifth Corvette was just a privateer small block effort of Wynenga/Jackson!''

Here is some very interesting history on the BUSHELL CAR...........................
Generation: C2
Year: 1963
VIN: 308375S103070
Race Numbers: 6
Ownership: Ken Hablow (1963 to spring 1967) driveline from the Alan Wyllie white 63 Z0-6; car went to Connenicut; car broken down for sale as parts; John and Chris Robarge (1980 to 1990); intervening owner (1990); Larry Sacks (1990 to present).
Sponsors: No sponsors
Drivers: Tom Rizzo, John Bushell John and Chris Robarge
Status: Restored and presented at historic races


Original Color: Blue
Tires/Wheels: 15x6 American
Engine: 327
Driveline: 4-speed Muncie
Top:
Interior: unknown
Condition: Car is currently restored to a dark blue color scheme with gold hood stripe.
URL:
Unique Characteristics:
Modifications: Many. see text
Notes/Race History:

A white 1963 Z0-6 coupe was purchased from Alan Wyllie in late 1963. That car was bumped by Skip Hudson at the 1964 Daytona 3 hour race, and spun and barrell rolled three times and was destroyed. This car received all the Z0-6 race parts of brakes, suspension, master cylinder and 36.5 gallon gas tank. Ken Duclos (see the note at the end) had done a lot of work on Alan's car at various race tracks as the car was not well prepared and Alan was not a mechanic.

So we knew this car quite well. It was a rather easy job putting the car in race ready condition once I bought it. The engine was factory fuel injected with the rest of the factory Z06 options; 36 gallon gas tank and heavy duty brake option from the 1964-65 transfer.

We raced the car that season and decided to go to Daytona. I say ''we'' as I do not remember who drove the car as it was several drivers over the course of the season. During the crash at Daytona the body flew apart and came off the frame, which is what it was designed to do. Ken Duclos had installed a full roll cage to protect the driver. The car landed on all four wheels and Tom Rizzo walked away. The car was literally tied onto the trailer and hauled back to Boston. With so much body damage it was easier to build a new car than to repair the body on the original one. Ken wanted to build a roll cage from scratch anyway. We located a Daytona Blue 63 coupe at a junkyard that had been stolen and the motor taken out. Ken built the roll cage in the blue car and we simply bolted on all the race hardware from the white car making improvements as we went along.

The blue coupe has a 327 A Production legal motor. I have no recollection where the original Z06 chassis wound up. We had all been quite friendly with Don Yenko going back to 1960 as we traveled the circuit as a group and Corvette owners stayed together at the tracks and helped each other when necessary. When Chevrolet released the 396 block I asked Yenko if I could buy an engine. We were getting bored with the 327 fuelie and wanted to build a Corvette ''super car''.

Chevrolet would not sell the engine alone at that time so Don sold me a car at his cost with the understanding he could drive it at Daytona and Sebring. I flew to Cannonsburg to pick up the car, a factory white coupe. The car would not go over 50 mph all the way home without overheating. This was a problem with the very first cars shipped with the 396. We put the engine and radiator into the blue coupe. We discovered what the overheating problem was and immediately corrected it. This caught the attention of the GM engineers. Since the engine had to race in modified class, we had free reign to do whatever we wanted. Ken Duclos did all the mechanical work. He found a custom intake manifold that used 4 Rochester 2 barrel carbs so that there was a direct flow to each intake valve. This proved much more efficient than the standard high rise manifold with a single big Holly.

Through Yenko, I had an inside track to Chevy R&D and since we were the only ones on the east coast racing and experimenting with the big block, Chevy kept sending us all kinds of engine parts to try. This included everything from camshafts to exhaust systems.

We decided to make the car look more like a Grand Sport and modified the body. We took the split out of the rear and had a custom plexiglass window made with air vents. The venting on the body was designed for brake cooling and to let some of the air out of the lower rear chamber. The engine had so much power we could not keep transmissions or rear ends together. I had already purchased what Chevrolet called the M-22 ''Rock Crusher'' gear box for my 63 roadster so this trans was put in the coupe 396 car. To solve the rear end problem Ken Duclos welded the spiders so we had a locked rear end. Mark Donohue always called this car a moving road block. We still had problems with the transmission and rear end overheating so we installed Borg Warner pumps on each with manual switches and temperature gauges. When the temperature got to a certain point the pumps had to be turned on. This kept the gears from turning blue.

This car ran like a Swiss watch. Every nut and bolt was safety wired including all the internal engine parts. When Ken and I decided to take the car to Nassau Speed Weeks in Dec. 4, 1966, we got greedy and built a 427. This engine never ran well. At Nassau we had so many problems with it we did a swap with the original 396 short block which we had in the truck. We only finished 17th OA and 7th in class.

After Nassau we decided to sell the car the following spring of 1967. I believe the first sale was to someone in Connecticut. Going back to 1960, Ken Duclos was chief Corvette mechanic at a local Chevrolet dealer. This dealer was noted for work on sports racing and rally cars. Several of us all bought 63 Sting Rays at the same time from this dealer. This group included John Bushell, myself and Tom Rizzo, among others.

The three of us were the only ones who continually used the cars in competition and were interested in more than local Autocross and hill climb events. Ken Duclos did all the work on all the cars. This is how the alliance was formed between us and why this was the initial group at Daytona. Fred Darling was another Corvette Driver from Rhode Island who consistently hung with our group. Fred drove the older solid axel cars at the same time John Bushell started to race solid axel Corvettes. Ken Duclos was John's mechanic. Ken started to drive our cars at autocrosses and it was apparent he was a superb driver. He then got his SCCA license and ultimately won several SCCA championships. That is the short history of the car without all the ensuing stories that followed that car while I owned it........................Signed DON SACKS
Registry ID Number: 339

THE RACE CREW AT DAYTONA 1965


THE REAR OF THE ''GOLDEN GOOSE''

wmf62

I wonder if this was a Man-A-Fre? if so I can understand why they used it as I had one on my 327CI 65 coupe; wish I still had as it performed every bit as good as my FI with a lot less potential problems.
Bill

lwise4

Thanks for the anniversary wish! I still have my paperwork from the 1968 purchase. I bought the car at DeNooyer Bros. Company 350 W. Michigan, Battle Creek Michigan. My car was 194678S 405 916. My trade in was a 1966 Corvette 194676S 104 499. These numbers are off of my STATEMENT of MOTOR VEHICLE SALE. My car listed at 5477.80 and they gave me a discount of 659.39. Total delivered price of 5024.00. As I said I went to pick up my car and the L88 was on the truck also. The date was December 15, 1967. If I can be of further assistance PM me.

Tyler Townsley

The car was to be shown at Bloomington then Carlisle but there has been a new wrinkle that has to be worked out. We think the chassis was initially under a car raced in summer of 65 and wrecked. Since it was a 'loaner' car it was returned to GM. Apparently the chassis was not damaged, It made a good platform for testing the L-88 and racing bits so it was bodied as a 66 given various bits and used for testing by Zora. In the end the final step was to make the car available to outside GM but in a way the auditors could not catch it. That is why it went to a po dunk dealer in Washington. At this time we have no trace on who was given a chance to race the car on the west coast. It was never 'sold' hence the fact it was still on a MSO so it cannot be traced that way. Do the race records you talk about have vin and color? The car was white, not sure the owner wants to release the vin right now. It would be interesting to fill in the time between it went to Washington and when it went to the junkyard it was retrieved from.

Tyler

TCracingCA

So did the car end up at Lincoln?

Some SCCA programs or grid sheets denote the color! If the region had anyone that kept the records, then they went off of roll bar number! I concentrate on SoCal, but have picked up a lot of NorCal stuff! I have always picked up other area programs if being sold cheap or I like the cover or the participants! The SCCA mags never had complete race to race coverage! But you could track competitors by National results and math of you know the scope of events! Not real scientific! And then pictures are golden, if you can find them! I have FIA records, but not the level of having the Vins!

TCracingCA

Darn, still no color! I will look up your profile to see if you picture your car, so we can see what color for the L88 sighting! Kind of like chasing UFOs!

Did you say the sighting was a C2 or C3 back then? December 1967, they were selling the 1968 by then and the one you were buying! The 1967 cars were all sold pretty much by then and in private hands, unless it was some kind of dealer trade which I doubt! I know which ones were sold up there and which ones had raced in those regions! I thought your previous post was about one of the C2 cars, since we are on that forum and most of this thread is on C2 cars!

We were at the 1967 Riverside Times GP in the Corvette Corral parking and one of the Club guys had a new 1968 Green one there! I remember as a young kid, I was mesmerized already by Cars! I remember asking my Father if that one was faster than his, naturally he told me "no son!" that was when he had the cross ram on his 1964 and the rear cut wheel wells for the 10 inch Ansen mags!

On C3 L88s I years ago first posted that Harry Mann color photo which has populated through the internet now! They had one in their showroom 1968, but not out on the row when I first seen one at a Dealership!

I saw a few of them, when my Father bought his car at Dana Chevrolet, because the salesman tried to sell him one! But he was sold on the customized Riverside Gold 1968, that they dressed and tuned! We went to buy the car me riding along in his 1964 Drag race coupe that my Mother wanted him to sell! He had his Drivers License back by then! My Mother and my brothers followed in our 427 Ford wagon! My mother shook her head adamantly "No" when the salesman was showing him one of the L88s because she heard bigger engine- It had to have been a 1969 car, because it was Riverside Gold also!