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If anyone has an interest, two of my cars are being "test" judged in the new "concours" judging class at Lakeland. Stop by and say hello. My black 67, LS3, Corvette Correction chassis, auto, etc., will be one of 5 cars being "tested". A silver split window, LS7, Jamison chassis owned by Ken Fisher, that I did back in 2013, will also be in the lineup. I'm bringing my 67 over on Weds to stage for OPS on Thursday morning (I sure hope that my choke doesn't stick.......LOL). Car will be "judged" on Friday. I also have two swap spaces (610-611) along with Mark Napoli (mark6669 on this forum). I'll be there on and off all 5 days. Hope to see you there.
My car was judged in the building, with the "flight judged" cars. The 5 concours cars were included, and treated as "part of the process". All of the judges were master level. There were two judges per section (mechanical, interior, exterior, and chassis). I would say that the judging was just as intense, with no concern for originality. The judging sheets were well done, with a single column for "Appearance". The the judging sheets were laid out just like a flight judged sheet, with specific line items. As and example: On the exterior, you had fit and finish overall. Front and rear bumpers, lightning, glass, trim, etc., with much detail in some areas. Points were assigned to each, with deducts taken (subjectively, of course). The total points available are 2,200 for all 4 sections, plus operations. There are two levels of award in each class. Just like the flight system, if you score 94% or better, of the 2,200, you receive a "427" Concours award. Then there is the "327" Concours ribbon/certificate for 83% to 93%.
Here are some observations. Judging was very well done, and fair. This is NOT NCCC judging. The key work here is "Appearance", which includes "dirt and bugs", but is not entirely "dirt and bugs". To give some examples, I lost points for the bolts holding my lower hood hinges, as the "washer heads" hung slightly over the edge of the hinge. I should have used a "better fitting bolt/washer". I agree with that. I lost points for wiring under the front valance that could have been "tighter", and maybe wrapped. I agree with that. I lost points for holes in the body, and the rocker moldings that were intended to hold the heat/splash shields in the corners of the engine bay. I should have plugged the holes, or installed a shield. I agree with that. I also lost points for rust, crumbs, dirt, and dents in various places (very NCCC like), and I agree with that. I lost other points, which I also agree with. Workmanship, fit and finish, dents and scratches, rust and dirt, are all part of "appearance".
The score sheets were detailed enough to allow the judges to apply deductions for "appearance" for very specific areas of the car. There was a "general cleanliness category in each judging section worth 20 points. You can have a radial tires, mags, tinted windows, and a pink dipstick....
I was asked to remove one fuel rail cover on my LS3. I was asked to roll up the windows, and open the doors.
There was a LOT of interest in this process. There are still some old timers that don't support it, but my general impression is that the majority of the membership is behind this. It was a blast. I hope I answered all the questions.
There will be 2 categories of concours judging.....stock and modified. Cars will not be judged for originality. VIN tags must be present and trim tags will not be examined. There will be more emphasis on condition as well as operations.
An example of the stock class would be an overrestored car using BC/CC whose colors have been changed using colors available to that model and that year. All upgrades permitted as far as engine, and accessories as long as they were available for that model in that year. I believe that a small number of non stock changes are allowed, although I'm not sure about that.
An example of the modified class would be a full out restomod, or a Corvette modified beyond that which is allowable in the stock class.
Last edited by 65tripleblack; 01-08-2017 at 09:19 PM.
There will be 2 categories of concours judging.....stock and modified. Cars will not be judged for originality. VIN tags must be present and trim tags will not be examined. There will be more emphasis on condition as well as operations.
An example of the stock class would be an overrestored car using BC/CC whose colors have been changed using colors available to that model and that year. All upgrades permitted as far as engine, and accessories as long as they were available for that model in that year. I believe that a small number of non stock changes are allowed, although I'm not sure about that.
An example of the modified class would be a full out restomod, or a Corvette modified beyond that which is allowable in the stock class.
This is what was published in the latest issue of the driveline. I think that it's all a result of trying to bring more Corvette owners into the fold of the hobby. I'm told that this is a test run to make the judging have some meaning, by establishing some standards, and judging criteria. The current "sportsman" award never did get much action, and there was no judging criteria. I've been a member of the NCRS for a long time, and have been through the Top Flight judging process at the Chapter, Regional, and National levels. I'm doing this to help out. I want this to be a meaningful, value added process, that will strengthen the ranks of the hobby. I've always said that there is room for everybody, and I've been on both sides of the fence, so I really get that. I'm taking this really serious, and I hope that all of you will too. This is a good thing for the hobby in general. If you don't like getting your car scrutinized, that's fine, but it doesn't hurt to have a program in place that recognizes the ownership and maintenance (numbers aside) of our cars. I realize that it will be mostly subjective, with operations being objective. I continue to support the NCRS, even though I have restomods in my blood. (I'm currently building number 29). I hope to meet some of you there.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
2019 C1 of Year Winner (performance mods)
2017 Corvette of the Year Finalist
2016 C2 of Year
2015 C3 of Year Finalist
I'll be there on Thursday. Great looking cars. Looking forward to seeing them. I love all the perfectly restored, original cars, but always enjoy seeing something different.
Sounds like NCRS is trying to stay relevant, with so much interest in non-stock or restomod cars, the original car NCRS crowd is getting long in the tooth.
I would suspect judging will be closer to NCCC standards, where condition and cleanliness is the criteria. Cleanliness being both lack of dirt, and build expertise- the judge will probably notice the stack of washers you used to level out something, that you forgot about.
I have shown, and won, in NCCC judging, it is good excuse to really, really clean your car every so often.
I remember years ago getting dinged about my bell housing, the judge said it could be silver, or it could be orange, but it couldn't be silver and orange.
Sounds like NCRS is trying to stay relevant, with so much interest in non-stock or restomod cars, the original car NCRS crowd is getting long in the tooth.
I would suspect judging will be closer to NCCC standards, where condition and cleanliness is the criteria. Cleanliness being both lack of dirt, and build expertise- the judge will probably notice the stack of washers you used to level out something, that you forgot about.
I have shown, and won, in NCCC judging, it is good excuse to really, really clean your car every so often.
I remember years ago getting dinged about my bell housing, the judge said it could be silver, or it could be orange, but it couldn't be silver and orange.
Doug
That is funny.
It'd be interesting to see WHO does the judging as it'll be a horse of another entirely for the staid, typical NCRS judges...
Hope it works out, it'd add a bit of fun to things and foster an appreciation for high-end restomods I think. If Ken Fisher's split window doesn't draw a huge crowd I'll be greatly surprised. He has put add'l "goodies" on it since the original build...just as a teaser (he lives a mile from me).
It also opens a big niche for the "stock" class, where those who appreciate originality, but don't like being straightjacketed (numbers matching, no color change, no high end paint application, no stock options that didn't come on car, etc.). This is a real dilemma for me, because I'd prefer some tasteful stock "upgrades", but since my car is almost entirely original I worry about taking a hit on value. Maybe a "concours" award would help to undergird value on such a car.
This is what was published in the latest issue of the driveline. I think that it's all a result of trying to bring more Corvette owners into the fold of the hobby. I'm told that this is a test run to make the judging have some meaning, by establishing some standards, and judging criteria. The current "sportsman" award never did get much action, and there was no judging criteria. I've been a member of the NCRS for a long time, and have been through the Top Flight judging process at the Chapter, Regional, and National levels. I'm doing this to help out. I want this to be a meaningful, value added process, that will strengthen the ranks of the hobby. I've always said that there is room for everybody, and I've been on both sides of the fence, so I really get that. I'm taking this really serious, and I hope that all of you will too. This is a good thing for the hobby in general. If you don't like getting your car scrutinized, that's fine, but it doesn't hurt to have a program in place that recognizes the ownership and maintenance (numbers aside) of our cars. I realize that it will be mostly subjective, with operations being objective. I continue to support the NCRS, even though I have restomods in my blood. (I'm currently building number 29). I hope to meet some of you there.
Mike, One part I am not clear on is the results. Do cars in say stock class receive awards similar to Flight Judging? Multiple cars can be Top Flight, Second Flight, etc or is it one winner, one second place, one third place?
Back in the day, there was a big annual Corvette show in Orlando area. It was usually at the Winter Park Mall. I think it was an NCCC event, put on by the Central Florida Corvette Club.
Three classes of cars for judging.
1. Stock
2. Semi-Custom
3. Full Custom
Stock was a car that had no changes from original. This was a loose term, since numbers were not judged. A correct appearing engine for that year was considered stock.
Semi-Custom was a car that had 5 or less modifications from stock. Non original wheels and hubcaps was a change (one change), flared fenders was a change, non-original appearing engine was a change, custom paint was a change, non original appearing interior was a change. Custom / sectioned nose was a change (you get the idea).
Full-Custom was more than 5 changes from original appearing.
This 1958, which is the car that got me into Corvettes, was classified as a full custom as it had 6 changes from stock.:
The full custom class was tough, so the owner put 15 inch steel wheels and 59-62 hubcaps on the car one year for the show, which dropped him to semi-custom, as the wheels and hubcaps were original appearing. (I know that 58 hubcaps are not the same as 59-62, it did not matter).
Mike, One part I am not clear on is the results. Do cars in say stock class receive awards similar to Flight Judging? Multiple cars can be Top Flight, Second Flight, etc or is it one winner, one second place, one third place?
Different awards and different ribbons than Flight. Different ribbon for Modified and different for Stock.
Only one award for each. Not like Flight where there are three levels.
Similar to Flight judging in that if you meet the criteria, then you're "in", otherwise, yer "out". I assume that cars will accumulate points, just like Flight. Hopefully, if that is true, then there will still be a "pecking order", which will make it competitive.
Last edited by 65tripleblack; 01-12-2017 at 01:46 PM.
Different awards and different ribbons than Flight. Different ribbon for Modified and different for Stock.
Only one award for each. Not like Flight where there are three levels.
Similar to Flight judging in that if you meet the criteria, then you're "in", otherwise, yer "out". I assume that cars will accumulate points, just like Flight. Hopefully, if that is true, then there will still be a "pecking order", which will make it competitive.
The Driveline pictures two different ribbons for each of the two classes. So is there there a first and second place in each class?
I guess we'll find out on Saturday. There were 5 cars in OPS yesterday. Four of them are in Modified, and one is in Stock. The judges did a good job, and expected everthing to operate properly. A couple of things that I noted as examples:
I had the bracket(hole) in the glovebox for a light, but didn't have a light. I lost 5 points. If I would have plugged the hole, or cut it off, there would have been no deduct.
One of the cars lost several points, because he had no dash indicators for turn signals, high beam, etc. The reasoning for that is if you have turn signals, you should have dash indicators to make sure that they are on, or off. On this subject, I have Detroit Speed headlight motors, which eliminate the bucket "roll" switch. Therefore I lost no points for not having the "lights" down indicator light. One of the cars had stock motors, and didn't wire the switch/light, so he lost points.
Checked wiper, start up, leaks, noise, dash lights, turn signals, brake and turn signal lights. I have daytime running lights, and use the running light sockets/ turn signal sockets. The circuit needed to be present to "cancel" the non-turn side, on the front lights, as to not confuse an on coming driver.
There were three judges for the ops, and there was a pretty good crowd observing. The judges were all "master level" . John St Peter is the team leader. They were courteous, asked lots of questions, allowed me to demonstrate and explain the operation of the "weird" stuff. They had specific score sheets for this new class.
I spoke with Dave Brigham (national judging chairman), and John St Peter at length, and took away that they are very serious about making this work. The actual judging starts today, and I'm told that it is NOT going to be an NCCC program.
Got to meet several forum members face to face. That was cool. Maybe I'll see more today. Sold most everthing that I brought to the swap meet. It was a fun day. Weather is perfect. Come on down.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
2019 C1 of Year Winner (performance mods)
2017 Corvette of the Year Finalist
2016 C2 of Year
2015 C3 of Year Finalist
Mike, it was a pleasure to meet you yesterday. Your 67 is very impressive. Sounds like there is some very objective judging criteria for the new class. Nice to see the variety of cars.
The weather was perfect. Nice to see old friends and meet new ones. Vendor turnout is about the same as last year.
01-08-2017, 04:35 PM
NCRS Concours judging rollout Lakeland
This is what was published in the latest issue of the driveline. I think that it's all a result of trying to bring more Corvette owners into the fold of the hobby. I'm told that this is a test run to make the judging have some meaning, by establishing some standards, and judging criteria. The current "sportsman" award never did get much action, and there was no judging criteria. I've been a member of the NCRS for a long time, and have been through the Top Flight judging process at the Chapter, Regional, and National levels. I'm doing this to help out. I want this to be a meaningful, value added process, that will strengthen the ranks of the hobby. I've always said that there is room for everybody, and I've been on both sides of the fence, so I really get that. I'm taking this really serious, and I hope that all of you will too. This is a good thing for the hobby in general. If you don't like getting your car scrutinized, that's fine, but it doesn't hurt to have a program in place that recognizes the ownership and maintenance (numbers aside) of our cars. I realize that it will be mostly subjective, with operations being objective. I continue to support the NCRS, even though I have restomods in my blood. (I'm currently building number 29). I hope to meet some of you there.
