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How much does a "built" M22W have?

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Old 02-16-2017, 01:18 PM   #1
DZAUTO
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Default How much whine does a "built" M22W have?

I've been rebuilding 4spds (mostly Muncies) for 50yrs, but never built one with aftermarket M22 gears. In the past, all M22s were close ratio, but now there are different M22 ratios available, such as the M22W gear set (wide ratio like an M20). I've just built my first M22W for the Chevelle and I am curious if the whine will be as noticeable as a regular GM M22.
Anyone have experience with an M22W gear set? I'm HOPING it will whine like a regular M22.
If all goes well, and it sounds good, I may build 2 more!

Last edited by DZAUTO; 02-16-2017 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:47 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by DZAUTO View Post
I've been rebuilding 4spds (mostly Muncies) for 50yrs, but never built one with aftermarket M22 gears. In the past, all M22s were close ratio, but now there are different M22 ratios available, such as the M22W gear set (wide ratio like an M20). I've just built my first M22W for the Chevelle and I am curious if the whine will be as noticeable as a regular GM M22.
Anyone have experience with an M22W gear set? I'm HOPING it will whine like a regular M22.
If all goes well, and it sounds good, I may build 2 more!
Hi Tom,

I have one of each.....................M22 wide and M22 close ratio. I must say that I was a bit disappointed that the wide ratio one did not whine as much as the close ratio did. I thought it was just me..............but maybe not. Any idea why there would be a difference in whine? I guess I'm just "whining" about it.

Thanks,
Rex
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Old 02-16-2017, 02:49 PM   #3
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I have not installed the M22W in the Chevelle yet, so I can't say how noticeable the whine will be. That's why I inquired here. I thought maybe someone might have personal experience with a M22W.
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:04 PM   #4
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Hi there!

Be careful; there are (2) different M22W gearsets on the market
The asian manufactured M22W does the same thing GM did to create an M20 from an M21; that is they kept 1st, 2nd, and 3rd on the mainshaft the same as an M22, and just changed the input and cluster. This gives you an approximate ratio split of (2.56/1.90/1.48/1.00) depending on their exact gear geometry, these numbers could be off by a tiny bit.

AG Italian made M22W uses a unique set of gears to give the ratio more balance - more like a ST10 2.64 ratio set. Ours is (2.56/1.75/1.36/1.00)
In essence, youre getting a close ratio 2,3 & 4 with the wide ratio 1st.
This is for moderate road racing, drag racing and to counter the big drop from 3rd to 4th that some people complain about on the M20-type ratios.

Noise is tooth-to-tooth spacing errors; maybe oddball spacing, a rough surface finish, etc. Because OUR stuff is made to print and is done using tighter tolerances it can tend to be a little quieter.
This stuff is on a bell curve, even GM got the tolerance stack up just right occasionally and some of their boxes will be inherently quiet.

Ive been here 7 years, and the number of people complaining that its not loud ENOUGH far outnumber the guys complaining they're too loud.

If you have Italian synchros and the high quality forged synchro rings; try Royal Purple 75w90 "MAX GEAR". It will give you a little bit more noise. If not RP; try the Brad Penn 80w90 'classic gear oil'
Slightly underfilling the unit (since the fill-port in the muncie migrates from casting to casting quite a bit); as long as you have AT LEAST 1-QT, will improve shifting, run cooler and be a LOT less likely to leak past the front nut. This is exacerbated by the 'tail-high' rake some of us like.

Some of this 'too quiet' stuff might also be the fact that none of us knew what earplugs were until we were closer to middle aged, so its not as loud as we remembered. Some of you played games with ATF and even 30wt engine oil in gearboxes which made them VERY loud LOL
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:10 PM   #5
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I have the 2.56 Italian gear Autogear trans (case and gears) in my 66. To me it is quiet and isn't bad. I am not a good judge as I have very loud GNM Sweet Thunder sidepipes you can't hear **** over those.

For the last 16 years I have used either Jerico's or the Gforce G101 in my Nova which all have straight cut gears which are loud. So gear whine to me is all relative. I have am very happy with my Autogear box. For what you get I think the price is quite reasonable.

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Old 02-16-2017, 04:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auto Gear View Post
Hi there!

Be careful; there are (2) different M22W gearsets on the market---------------------------------------------------------------------LOL
I have the Italian gears, with 10/27spline shafts, got them from Larry Fischer and put them in a 661 case. I was REALLY hoping you guys would tell me that the M22W gears had very noticeable whine!!!!
Oh well, we'll see----------------------------

Buy the way, I've also just finished building a 2.73 12bolt posi to go behind the SB400/M22W for better hiway economy.
I acquired a mint R&P gear set and the posi was in excellent shape (came out of a full size 4dr Pont, thus probably never abused. EVERYTHiNG else inside is new. The complete 12bolt housing came out of a 71 El Camino that was in line to go into a crusher in about 30min. Gave $75 for it and my son and I were stroking to remove it! WOW, what luck!




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Old 02-21-2017, 05:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZAUTO View Post
I have the Italian gears, with 10/27spline shafts, got them from Larry Fischer and put them in a 661 case. I was REALLY hoping you guys would tell me that the M22W gears had very noticeable whine!!!!
I've built many of these transmissions. Noise is subjective. One point that wasn't mentioned is main case accuracy. The AGE case, mid plate and extension are far more accurate than the GM parts. It's a night and day difference when you assemble them. People often bush stock cases moving the centerline and you can get more noise. Distortion due to heat treat is also not as severe as it was in 1960's & 70's. The M22 gears that use ground gearing in the M23 series( our DS models) will have a different noise than conventional hobbed gears.
Watch the video below: Fast forward to 7:20 This is a Spec25 M22 I built with shotpeened and surface enhanced Italian gears. Very noticable whine

Last edited by 4speeds; 02-21-2017 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:07 AM   #8
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Tom - sorry for responding to a couple months old thread but interested if you have installed the M22W in your Chevelle yet? I'm trying to decide between the standard CR gear set the M22W with my 4.11 rear. At first I was turned off by the gap from 1rst to 2nd but the more I study up I realize it isn't that much greater than a lot of other 60s era 4 speed transmissions.
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:28 AM   #9
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Isn't it amazing, ..... absolutely NO ONE complains about the gear quality or shifting ease. Gear noise is the hot topic and only purpose of the clone M-22. There has to be a simple reason why tolerances on a standard four speed can't be less ( maybe not for a million miles ) to create the same response.
I am happy when everything operates smoothly and quiet. I'm even considering removing the side exhaust from the 64 coupe when it becomes the next driver. The kid in me left decades ago. Tom I understand completely. I would trust your assembly methods to the moon. It may well be the manufacturers purpose was to build a strong gear set , not duplicate the 60s noise levels. Hope it works out to your satisfaction.
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:54 AM   #10
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From what I read the Italian made M22 gears are not exactly known for noise due to improved manufacturing processes so the infamous M22 gear whine isn't my goal. But I am curious about the wide ratio M22 gear ratios for general street use. It sounds like it would improve the 3rd - 4th gap somewhat.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:40 AM   #11
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You're much better off having the largest intergear ratio between 1-2, and progressively smaller as you go up through the gears.

Shortly I'm going to start a new thread and attach an Excel program that is helpful analyzing different gearing options.

Duke
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:20 PM   #12
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Wanting a rockcrusher and complaining about noise

If a 5 spd were made with the same close gear ratios 1-5 and whined like a schoolbus Id sell my T56 and put it in.

set up right M22s are real sweet shifting trannies, DD one with a 67 rs and 70 Z/28 for yrs only had to make an adjustment once. Coupled with a Hurst super shifter was always satisfying.

Only gripe about any Muncie was they always broke behind big blocks.
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:22 PM   #13
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The M22W ratio drops are .46, .28 and .366 through the gears versus for the normal M22 ratio drops of .34. .29 and .274.

The M20 is .19, .29 and .46.

No doubt the standard M22 has almost ideal gear spacing but you give up an easy first gear launch. The regular M20 is kind of spaced backwards.
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:37 PM   #14
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The way I defined inter-gear ratio is the inverse of what you listed, but it's and arbitrary choice and either yields the same result as long as the formulas are set up correctly.

For example if the inter-gear ratio is 1.5 and you shift at 6000, revs drop to 6000/1.5 = 4000.

Using he inverse 1/1.5 = .6667: .6667(6000) = 4000 to four significant digits.

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Old 04-23-2017, 06:16 PM   #15
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Yes, I dropped the whole number off but I see your point.

If anyone wants to hear a vintage M22 gear whine they can watch Two Lane Blacktop. That 55 Chev in some scenes has a serious gear whine to it that just about drowns out the engine and I'm pretty sure was the gearbox.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DansYellow66 View Post
The M22W ratio drops are .46, .28 and .366 through the gears versus for the normal M22 ratio drops of .34. .29 and .274.

The M20 is .19, .29 and .46.

No doubt the standard M22 has almost ideal gear spacing but you give up an easy first gear launch. The regular M20 is kind of spaced backwards.
Sorry to say your math is way off. To determine the percentage of ratio drop, for example with an M22. The standard ratios are 2.20,1.64,1.28 and 1.00. (2.20 - 1.64) / 2.20 = .254 You can easily check that. Your above math if reversed would yield a 1.41 2nd.

Please read: http://www.5speeds.com/ratios.html

You can download this catalog which has all the current ratios available for the Muncie platform: http://www.5speeds.com/mpower/downloadcat.php

Percent drop is real. For the same RPM in each gear.

Thanks,
Paul Cangialosi

Last edited by 4speeds; 04-23-2017 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:44 AM   #17
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tom
does the water pump cause any problems to the gauge? thanks jim
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:02 AM   #18
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My first question to a customer in Dan's position is "what are you going to do with this?"
If its in a road race 'vette with a solid lifter 283; then the close ratio is the way to go 99 times out of 100. If its a street car, looking for some fun in the twisties, then the M22W with the 2.56/1.75/1.36/1.00 is the way to go. Even with the 4.10s in the back. This is especially true if there's a chance you may want to change the rear axle someday to something less lively. You could go all the way to a 3.55 and still have acceptable performance most times (tire height and engine powercurve affect this - and 'acceptable' is subjective).
Using the old ballpark rule of (rear gear) x (1st) = 9:1
4.11 x 2.20 = 9.04
3.55 x 2.56 = 9.09
and
4.11 x 2.56 = 10.52 which would be the same in 1st gear as a close ratio box with a theoretical 4.78:1 rear.
Its certainly capable of being aggressive when you put your foot in it; but the 2-3 and 3-4 gaps are pretty close to the original close ratio for most people.
If you have a brand new set of 4.11s, and you're only going to put 2,000mi on the car a year, and you'll never change the rear gears or get on the highway, a close ratio is fine.
Different strokes for different folks.

If you don't like doing long-hand math, John Wallace's WallaceRacing.com has a "Gear Shift RPM Drop Calc" which will tell you how far your RPMs will drop when you shift. Just pick a realistic shift point; most of you aren't shifting at 5,500RPMs ALL THE TIME.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:52 AM   #19
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tom
does the water pump cause any problems to the gauge? thanks jim
No, not at all.

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Old 04-24-2017, 07:41 PM   #20
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sheeeet... my SS700 is too noisy for me....

Bill
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