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Old 09-12-2017, 08:07 AM   #1
hikerneil
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Default VIN Stamping Question

I am interested in a C2 car, preferably a 65-67 model with a small block. I am concerned about restamped numbers and am attempting to ensure that I don't get stuck with a car that has been fraudulently stamped and then identified as "Numbers Matching".

I have been told that this occurs mostly only on big block cars as the cost incurred to do this is not justified on a small block car. This makes no sense to me. I am assuming this can happen on any car. Is this true? Are there some major tip-offs to look for on this issue? (I plan to have my car inspected before purchase, but I would like to rule out cars that are obviously restamped before I pay for an inspection.)

By the way - I am doing everything I can to learn as much as I can - I am reading as much as I can on this forum and others, attending all the local car shows, I am joining my local Corvette chapter, I study and drive every car I can, and I ask every question I can to anyone who will listen.

Thanks.

hikerneil

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Old 09-12-2017, 08:18 AM   #2
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Due diligence in the search for a C2 is time well spent, good on you.

But your post includes neither a link to the old thread you refer to or a picture you reference.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:04 AM   #3
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I assume you want a numbers matching car and are willing to pay extra for that. Because if not, there are plenty of cars without matching numbers out there.

I am sure people re-stamp small blocks, so you are correct to be concerned about that. If done well, it takes an expert to catch some of these fakes. I've looked for proper provenance in the form of paperwork, but even that gets faked these days (probably more on big blocks given the expense).

One easy step you can take before hiring a professional is to look at the casting number and date code on the back of the block. If the casting number isn't correct, or if the date code is after the build date for the car, you'll know right away you're not looking at an original engine.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:37 AM   #4
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Default Stamps

Small blocks are also restamped all the time. The only way to really tell is by an experienced eye and compare to known examples of the same age.
Most inspectors and Alot of NCRS judges cant tell the difference. Forget paperwork, if you cant tell seeing the car, you wont know if paperwork is fake or not either.

Just buy a car that has a National Top Flight or Duntov with no deductions on stamp pad judging and dont stress if its real or not...enjoy it.
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:47 AM   #5
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Small blocks are also restamped all the time. The only way to really tell is by an experienced eye and compare to known examples of the same age.
Most inspectors and Alot of NCRS judges cant tell the difference. Forget paperwork, if you cant tell seeing the car, you wont know if paperwork is fake or not either.

Just buy a car that has a National Top Flight or Duntov with no deductions on stamp pad judging and dont stress if its real or not...enjoy it.
Amen brother
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:55 AM   #6
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Buy the best car you can afford. Project cars are money pits for the average hobbyist.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:08 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hikerneil View Post
I am interested in a C2 car, preferably a 65-67 model with a small block. I am concerned about restamped numbers and am attempting to ensure that I don't get stuck with a car that has been fraudulently stamped and then identified as "Numbers Matching".

I have been told that this occurs mostly only on big block cars as the cost incurred to do this is not justified on a small block car. This makes no sense to me. I am assuming this can happen on any car. Is this true? Are there some major tip-offs to look for on this issue? (I plan to have my car inspected before purchase, but I would like to rule out cars that are obviously restamped before I pay for an inspection.)

By the way - I am doing everything I can to learn as much as I can - I am reading as much as I can on this forum and others, attending all the local car shows, I am joining my local Corvette chapter, I study and drive every car I can, and I ask every question I can to anyone who will listen.

Thanks.

hikerneil
How much do you have budgeted for the car?
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:42 AM   #8
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Hi hickerneil, I have a 1965 that had original drive train. My car has 4:11 rear and a 4 speed muncie, non power steering,no power brakes and no air conditioning,after driving it for a couple of months this car is very uncomfortable. I have changed the transmission I loved it so much I am now in the process of ordering Borgeson power steering. This winter the corvette is getting Air condition.The C2 corvettes were in the Vietnam era and a lot of service people coming home were buying them. Many suffered punishment beyond imagination that is why so many of them don't have the original drive lines. The C2 were definitly not built for comfort. I'm wore out in a couple of hours driving that's why I'm changing mine over to more comfort
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:48 AM   #9
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Hi hickerneil, I have a 1965 that had original drive train. My car has 4:11 rear and a 4 speed muncie, non power steering,no power brakes and no air conditioning,after driving it for a couple of months this car is very uncomfortable. I have changed the transmission I loved it so much I am now in the process of ordering Borgeson power steering. This winter the corvette is getting Air condition.The C2 corvettes were in the Vietnam era and a lot of service people coming home were buying them. Many suffered punishment beyond imagination that is why so many of them don't have the original drive lines. The C2 were definitly not built for comfort. I'm wore out in a couple of hours driving that's why I'm changing mine over to more comfort
Power steering is a must...for us now....I did not need it 47 years ago....cruise control...really helps also...

300,000 miles later ....my car is very comfortable now...

Jack
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:22 PM   #10
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You said you are reading a lot so I guess you have read about broach marks. That's what I would look for. As you probably know they should be parallel to the crankshaft. If the casting date on the block agrees with car date then that's a good sign. Also the casting date on the intake and if they would let you, remove the valve covers and checking those numbers and dates on the heads would help. And then there is the alternator and transmission and rear end. I would think finding a 50 year old engine with all correct dated parts would be difficult for someone who wanted to restamp an engine.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:35 PM   #11
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"Numbers Matching Syndrome" is a disease. Please seek professional attention.

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Old 09-12-2017, 07:43 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by MOXIE62 View Post
You said you are reading a lot so I guess you have read about broach marks. That's what I would look for. As you probably know they should be parallel to the crankshaft. If the casting date on the block agrees with car date then that's a good sign. Also the casting date on the intake and if they would let you, remove the valve covers and checking those numbers and dates on the heads would help. And then there is the alternator and transmission and rear end. I would think finding a 50 year old engine with all correct dated parts would be difficult for someone who wanted to restamp an engine.
Not really.

http://engineslimited.com/cms/
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:08 PM   #13
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Haha. That's hilarious. From their website:

"We have done Bloomington Gold and NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society) Top Flight & Duntov Marque of Excellence Award engines."

I guess you can't believe anything. This is where paperwork and more importantly history plays a big part.

Ed
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:28 PM   #14
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I guess you can't believe anything. This is where paperwork and more importantly history plays a big part.

Ed
For sure.

During my 2014 search, it was amazing how many "numbers matching" C2s weren't matching.

Well, the number of tires matched the number of corners on the cars - I swear guys selling out there either didn't have a clue what numbers matching even meant, but threw the terms around anyway, or were just playing dumb when questioned about the mismatched parts.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:38 PM   #15
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For sure.

During my 2014 search, it was amazing how many "numbers matching" C2s weren't matching.

Well, the number of tires matched the number of corners on the cars - I swear guys selling out there either didn't have a clue what numbers matching even meant, but threw the terms around anyway, or were just playing dumb when questioned about the mismatched parts.
It means different things to different people. I posted the below not to long ago here on the site.

I don’t recall a complete definition posted for matching numbers on this forum so I decided to create MY version of it. This is for C1s and C2s ONLY. Some may agree some may not that is your choice.

Initially this has nothing to do with documentation, restamped engines, trim tags, V.I.N. tags, tank stickers, etc. I will address MY thoughts on this later in this post.

First, COMPLETE matching numbers would include every small component to have the correct (where applicable) casting number, date and or part number correct and dated correct to the birthday of the car. SOME PEOPLE believe that early C1s (prior to 1960 when they began stamping the partial V.I.N. on the engine pad) can not be considered matching numbers with regards to the drive train because of the factory absence of this number. To ME and others this is not correct. If Chevrolet determined it was not necessary how can the hobby dictate something else? If the car’s birthday lines up with the correct casting numbers, casting dates, and stamped information isn’t that matching numbers? It was for the factory so why not the hobby. If you have a car that meets this criteria and someone tells you it can not be PROVEN to be matching numbers ask them to prove it is not. It is a glass 1/2 full vs. glass 1/2 empty scenario. Matching numbers to some can be as simple as the V.I.N. plate matching the title as the law and the auto manufactures intended. The auto manufactures also created some partial hidden V.I.N.s to assist law enforcement and insurance companies in the case of theft.

Many people consider a car matching numbers if the title, V.I.N., engine and trans, casting numbers, casting dates and stamped numbers match and line up with the car’s birthday. I am going to describe these things as this is what MOST people in the hobby seem to be interested in.

The available numbers, to consider matching numbers, changed over the years.

This information is BASIC INFORMATION FOR NUMBERS MATCHING showing what matches for each particular year or series of years. I will not include all of the different suffix codes for engine, transmission and in later years certain option combinations. For that information see links below.

1953-1955---You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match, and the engine number for 6 cylinders are located on the right side of the block to the rear of the distributor. 8-cylinder engine number is on pad on front right hand side of the block behind the water pump. All Engine numbers start at 1001. The prefix letter identifies where the engine was built, model year and model type - "F" ~ Flint, "T" ~ Tonawanda.YG stamped suffix code denotes Corvette engine 1953-1955 for 6 cylinders. FG stamped suffix code denotes Corvette V8 engine in 1955. Early Corvette's that had 6 Cylinder engines did not have the Letter "V" as the first Sequence Number. The Letter "V" stands for V8. The VIN of 6 cylinder cars will always start with the Letter "E". This is why the VIN will be 10 digits for 1953-54 cars. For the 1955 model they added the letter V to get 11. After 1955 they went back to a 10 digit sequence.

1956-1957---You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match 1956-1957 model V.I.N.s begin with an “E”, and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine and transmission.

1958---1959 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1958-1959 model V.I.N.s begin with an “J”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine and transmission.

1960 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1960 model V.I.N.s begin with an “0”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine and transmission AND a partial V.I.N.

1961 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1961 model V.I.N.s begin with an “1”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine and transmission and a partial V.I.N.

1962 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1962 model V.I.N.s begin with an “2”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine and transmission and a partial V.I.N.

1963 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1960-1962 model V.I.N.s begin with an “3”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine, transmission some options and a partial V.I.N.

1964 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1960-1962 model V.I.N.s begin with an “4”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine, transmission, some options and a partial V.I.N.

1965---1967 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1965-1967 model V.I.N.s begin with an “1”) the model year digit was moved to the 5th character for 1965-1967, and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine, transmission, some options and a partial V.I.N.

Beginning in 1963 Corvettes have a trim tag that will identify the exterior and interior colors. For 1963-1967 these colors now add to the matching numbers that MOST people consider. Some of these tags have additional information for the car coded as well. Beginning in 1967 Corvettes have a build sheet glued to the top of the gas tank. All of these things as well as dealer purchase orders, re-stamped engine pads, casting numbers and casting dates can be changed/faked and have been for roughly 40 years so don’t assume that it mean the car was BORN this way. Some of this early “work” is detectable however the reproducers have honed their skills over the years to become undetectable.

Here are links.

There may be better ones, there may be mistakes, I am just giving you quick access for this thread you are welcome to spend YOUR time searching the web for others:

Birthday calculator for your car
http://www.corvettecentral.com/birthday/

Index of detailed Corvette numbers info including engine casting numbers and dates, 1953-1967 Engine Identification Codes (stamped engine suffix codes) 1953-67 Rear Axle Ratios & Identification Codes, and more
http://corvette-world.com/page-2-Cor...fications.html
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:02 PM   #16
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Haha. That's hilarious. From their website:

"We have done Bloomington Gold and NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society) Top Flight & Duntov Marque of Excellence Award engines."

I guess you can't believe anything. This is where paperwork and more importantly history plays a big part.

Ed
How does paper work help, and even history. The seller could have purchased car new, later on had a problem with engine and replaced with a restamp engine. That new broaching machine they have. If it's so great at duplicating broach marks why don't they guarantee it will pass judging. Call them and ask for a complete corvette number motor and see what they tell you. For 63 the date on the block could be a double digit for the year or a single. The double digit blocks also went into passenger cars but only the single digit went into the corvette,
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:12 PM   #17
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Save all this trouble and buy the best accident free C2 you can find in the colors you want and with the all the options you desire . It will still have the best V8 engine ever produced and will run and drive EXACTLY like one the has a "matching" number stamped in the block.

Jay Leno thinks matching numbers is silly , that's good enough for me.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:16 PM   #18
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How does paper work help, and even history. The seller could have purchased car new, later on had a problem with engine and replaced with a restamp engine. That new broaching machine they have. If it's so great at duplicating broach marks why don't they guarantee it will pass judging. Call them and ask for a complete corvette number motor and see what they tell you. For 63 the date on the block could be a double digit for the year or a single. The double digit blocks also went into passenger cars but only the single digit went into the corvette,
In my case, the second owner (1971-2002) had the car restored in 1991 or so. I still talk to him. I have all the documentation from him. Back in 1991 when it was restored, I have video and pictures of the car coming apart. Shows, vin, trim tag, engine numbers, and tank sticker being pulled off the car. Have the original POP with second owner confirming all docs and numbers are legitimate in writing.

Car has been driven less than 10k mikes since being restored in 1991. I also spoke to the third owner and I'm the fourth.

Doubt there's more anyone can do than that and would bet the car it's legitimate.

Ed
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:23 PM   #19
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Save all this trouble and buy the best accident free C2 you can find in the colors you want and with the all the options you desire . It will still have the best V8 engine ever produced and will run and drive EXACTLY like one the has a "matching" number stamped in the block.

Jay Leno thinks matching numbers is silly , that's good enough for me.
Jay thinks it's silly because if he paid for a numbers matching car and got screwed he'd laugh about it as money is no object to him.

For most paying a premium for a numbers matching car and finding out it's not could be a financial kick in the *****.

Now if you are saying true numbers matching cars shouldn't command a premium perhaps you are right given the fact that a reasonable percentage may not be numbers matcing. On the other hand you could argue that it should make true numbers matching cars more valuable provided you can prove it which I guess is the problem. I think I just confused myself.

Ed

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Old 09-12-2017, 09:42 PM   #20
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Thank you everyone for your detailed answers.

Here's what originally started me down this road: I found a car in North Carolina that features the VIN and Engine Pad stamp numbers shown in the pictures below.

When I saw these pictures I wondered if it was normal for half of the numbers to be stamped upside down, so I did some googling. I found a 10-year old thread on this car's VIN number on this site and there was a long thread about this issue. Fast forward 10 years, and the thread is repeating itself. Same car. Same issue. Funny, but also very informative for me as I learn about this issue.

For me - my top priority is to find a car that runs well, is reliable, and looks FANTASTIC (paint, wheels, chrome, the colors I want, etc). If I can find this car with matching numbers it would be a homerun, as I think it would allow me to sell the car more easily when I am ready to move on to the next car in a few years. I am enjoying the search for my perfect car, and I am in no hurry.

Thank you to everyone for all the information.
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