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Perhaps. .. But what to say for a guy having his car judged only to lose close points because his part(s) was/were less than correct. Maybe he ends up getting screwed out of an award because someone played the under the table card.
John
This makes no sense? ALL cars are judged on their own merits. You are being judged against the "book".
Getting a Top Flight is an achievement/Goal. Having borrowed parts etc in my opinion is a non-issue. Many parts are obsolete or so expensive to purchase it is out of the realm for some people who are trying to achieve the goal of Top Flight.
I realize there are some companies/shops that advertise making a car Top Flight or Bloomington Gold certified and there is those that will pay to get those ranking. That said, Most members are on their own in trying to restore their cars. I think you will find the MAJORITY of those in NCRS will never achieve a Top Flight or even attempt it. IT IS NOT EASY especially 50+ years after the car was built.
Making your car worth more has NEVER been the goal of any NCRS judging, but to be honest it is a residual effect because of what it takes to achieve the goal. The goal: To preserve the history of the car, and to bring it as close as possible to factory original as you can.
BUT REALLY like I stated, few will ever achieve a TOP Flight. (I remember back when I was working towards mine, I traveled from WI to NY just for heater hoses.
Those that criticize NCRS because they are to **** etc, just don't understand the reason for their existence. It is not a social club, it is a reference for those in the hobby that wish to preserve and restore their Corvettes.
I applaud NCRS for sticking to their original emphasis over the years, yet being open minded enough to open categories to keep the non-restored guys involved and continue to move forward. This is especially difficult since many of the members are ageing out.
This makes no sense? ALL cars are judged on their own merits. You are being judged against the "book".
Getting a Top Flight is an achievement/Goal. Having borrowed parts etc in my opinion is a non-issue. Many parts are obsolete or so expensive to purchase it is out of the realm for some people who are trying to achieve the goal of Top Flight.
I realize there are some companies/shops that advertise making a car Top Flight or Bloomington Gold certified and there is those that will pay to get those ranking. That said, Most members are on their own in trying to restore their cars. I think you will find the MAJORITY of those in NCRS will never achieve a Top Flight or even attempt it. IT IS NOT EASY especially 50+ years after the car was built.
Making your car worth more has NEVER been the goal of any NCRS judging, but to be honest it is a residual effect because of what it takes to achieve the goal. The goal: To preserve the history of the car, and to bring it as close as possible to factory original as you can.
BUT REALLY like I stated, few will ever achieve a TOP Flight. (I remember back when I was working towards mine, I traveled from WI to NY just for heater hoses.
Those that criticize NCRS because they are too **** etc, just don't understand the reason for their existence. It is not a social club, it is a reference for those in the hobby that wish to preserve and restore their Corvettes.
I applaud NCRS for sticking to their original emphasis over the years, yet being open minded enough to open categories to keep the non-restored guys involved and continue to move forward. This is especially difficult since many of the members are ageing out.
Well said Baja. NCRS is NOT a social club...don't believe it was ever meant to be. Not to say I haven't made some friends through the organization over the years. Is NCRS for everyone...Hell NO!! But, that's perfectly fine. I don't belong to a bridge club or the Elks or a Rotary Club or any other social club...not my thing. I have zero issues with the guys that want to do with their Corvette whatever they see fit...restored to factory spec, resto-moded or simply cobbled together to keep it running so they can enjoy driving it. The love of these cars should not be affected by how we enjoy them...each to their own...live and let live. My personal '67 is a multi-time NCRS Top Flight car that is driven 5000 miles per year. So, don't be jumping on that old band wagon that the NCRS types own nothing but trailer queens and don't appreciate them for what they were built for...to drive...nothing could be further from the truth.
Stepping down off the soap box
Well said Baja. NCRS is NOT a social club...don't believe it was ever meant to be. Not to say I haven't made some friends through the organization over the years. Is NCRS for everyone...Hell NO!! But, that's perfectly fine. I don't belong to a bridge club or the Elks or a Rotary Club or any other social club...not my thing. I have zero issues with the guys that want to do with their Corvette whatever they see fit...restored to factory spec, resto-moded or simply cobbled together to keep it running so they can enjoy driving it. The love of these cars should not be affected by how we enjoy them...each to their own...live and let live. My personal '67 is a multi-time NCRS Top Flight car that is driven 5000 miles per year. So, don't be jumping on that old band wagon that the NCRS types own nothing but trailer queens and don't appreciate them for what they were built for...to drive...nothing could be further from the truth.
Stepping down off the soap box
This makes no sense? ALL cars are judged on their own merits. You are being judged against the "book".
Getting a Top Flight is an achievement/Goal. Having borrowed parts etc in my opinion is a non-issue. Many parts are obsolete or so expensive to purchase it is out of the realm for some people who are trying to achieve the goal of Top Flight.
I realize there are some companies/shops that advertise making a car Top Flight or Bloomington Gold certified and there is those that will pay to get those ranking. That said, Most members are on their own in trying to restore their cars. I think you will find the MAJORITY of those in NCRS will never achieve a Top Flight or even attempt it. IT IS NOT EASY especially 50+ years after the car was built.
Making your car worth more has NEVER been the goal of any NCRS judging, but to be honest it is a residual effect because of what it takes to achieve the goal. The goal: To preserve the history of the car, and to bring it as close as possible to factory original as you can.
BUT REALLY like I stated, few will ever achieve a TOP Flight. (I remember back when I was working towards mine, I traveled from WI to NY just for heater hoses.
Those that criticize NCRS because they are to **** etc, just don't understand the reason for their existence. It is not a social club, it is a reference for those in the hobby that wish to preserve and restore their Corvettes.
I applaud NCRS for sticking to their original emphasis over the years, yet being open minded enough to open categories to keep the non-restored guys involved and continue to move forward. This is especially difficult since many of the members are ageing out.
Yes, but this was a number of years ago, before phone pictures, or many of the other technology we take for granted today. Besides, for the rarity and it being original OEM I wanted to see it in real life before I paid for it.
When you become consumed (Ok,Obsessed) in taking the car to the top level, you lose complete track of common sense and reality, or at least I did.
THANK goodness for the support, cromroderie and knowledge I had through our Chapter and Region while on the journey. It was without a doubt one of my most rewarding successes over the years, but I am in NO hurry to do it again!
Well said Baja. NCRS isNOT a social club...don't believe it was ever meant to be.
Don't tell the IRS that...its the whole basis for the NCRS's tax categorization.... To wit, "...a pleasure, recreational or social club"
The fact that "flight awards" have become inextricably tied to the perceived value of cars was inevitable (even though the NCRS itself decries the practice on the front pages of judging documents).
My split window received a regional, very high scoring Second Flight two years back and prob would have gone Top Flight except for too shiny paint and Vintage Air A/C. Took about 6 weeks prep for me to get it ready on a whim prior to the judging date. Yes, the car did have some stealthily converted electronics and a few borrowed items... A bunch of the judged cars did as I found out. The same car is driven regularly. Flight awards aren't some un-acheivable goal and they don't mean you can't enjoy the car.
As to objective judging standards - yes, they are in print with a reference manual as guidance. How those are applied is up to judges and team captains. Like the Supreme Court with our laws, various interpretations creep in. There is also an 'old boys' network underlying the judging deal...with some getting dispensation on certain rules.
Don't bother debating it, I've seen it. It is what it is...and in the absence of ANY standards - the best thing going.
As to being a real "Corvette Guy"....I need a refill on my Lipitor prescription and some JB-Weld this morning -- guess what I'm going to pick up first
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 12-06-2017 at 08:20 AM.
Ok, I will concede, structurally/business it may be set up under Social Club Rules, but that said, I feel you will find it is directed more as an educational structure, which ALSO would be a non-profit.
When an organization is first founded, filing papers structurally may or may not end up being the way it evolves.
What I was referring to is: meetings, events rather it be local, regional or national will have an or-rah of business. People learning about their cars and discussing what it would take or how to do a specific thing to bring them back to original standing. Not just a bunch of people that get together once a month to drink beer and tell self glorifying stories.
Others have said accurately that a TF only means the car was correct on the day it was judged. The next day- POOF- if you're a buyer for a car like that, have it inspected again by an NCRS judge like Lou did.
As for me- the first time I ventured to a show after rebuilding my 64 after the accident- on my own- in the garage (I was hit by a semi for you new guys) - I parked by a 63 convertible with an NCRS plate at a cruise in.
The guy was positively glowing as he showed me his completely 100% authentic and expensive seat belts. Poor fellow I am, mine are repro. Turned me off.
Lots of you guys are friends of mine and ncrs has been fun for you...it just isn't for me at this point in life.
I think it bears mentioning that there are probably more clubs - and types of clubs - for our Corvettes than for any other car. Bearing that in mind, shouldn't there be at least ONE of those clubs dedicated to making the car exactly right, just as it left the factory? Otherwise, how do we know what's "correct", as opposed to improved, modified, customized, etc., etc.? By its very nature, such a club won't be for everyone . . . at least not all the time. When you are restoring, resto-modding, customizing or just personalizing your Corvette, it's sometimes (frequently) more than helpful to know "how GM did it". Then you can decide - as if you haven't already - what YOU want to do to YOUR car. So, where do we go for that standard?
The NCRS exists because the Corvette community needs it. Maybe not all of us, probably not all the time, and almost certainly not as our only involvement in the Corvette hobby - but it's there if and when you need it. To be effective at what it does, it must have standards, guidelines, rules and regulations. Folks who buy Corvettes often hate one, more or all of those things. I get that. My 1962 will never be a 100-point show car, because I enjoy driving it too much to properly preserve it as such. That's my choice - but within the parameters I have chosen, I want it to be as "factory correct" as possible, and the NCRS has been a huge help in (A) Determining exactly what parts, finish, configuration, etc. it should have, and more importantly, (B) Providing a network of very knowledgeable people willing and able to help me get it there. I've made some great friends, learned an awful lot, and increased my enjoyment of my car. Are there a few jerks, nitwits, curmudgeons and sour-****** in the group? Sure. I avoid them, unless they are the one person who has the part, information or expertise I am seeking - in that case, I just have to suck it up and put up with them for a short while. All part of the game, and I have found that in many cases they aren't as bad as advertised.
So, no, the NCRS is not for everyone. It wasn't meant to be. It exists for a very specific purpose, and is very good at it. I would suggest adding it to your toolbox of helpful things, and supporting it to make certain it is there if and when you need it. In the meantime, enjoy your Corvette for what it is, and what you want it to be. Oh, and Merry Christmas!
It is funny how so many car people get so protective on their personal likes, and dismiss anything else. I love Corvettes of all kinds and respect the efforts and ingenuity that owners show in making their cars the way want it. I also enjoy all makes of cars. The NCRS keeps coming up as being only open to flight judging cars. Quite the contrary, they offer many categories, here are some, with brief description, sorry if I left any out:
Flight Judging, Restored Cars
Bowtie Judging, Original non restored cars, with educational merits
Sam Foltz Award, Farthest driven to a National Convention and get Top Flight Award
Founders Award, Write an article for NCRS, Drive your car 500 miles and pass operation test
American Heritage Award, For Corvette Race Cars and Special Interest Cars
Challenge Car Award, 88-90 Race Car recognition
New Experiment for Modified Corvettes, This is being worked on only at a Natioanal Level at this point.
how do we know what's "correct", as opposed to improved, modified, customized, etc., etc.?
I think it's the very use of that word - "correct" that causes such a reaction in many folks It implies that the other versions are somehow "incorrect", as opposed to just being different by choice.
How about not using such a judgmental word, and call it original, or factory original, or as manufactured, or something that doesn't cast others in a pejorative light?
I think it's the very use of that word - "correct" that causes such a reaction in many folks It implies that the other versions are somehow "incorrect", as opposed to just being different by choice.
How about not using such a judgmental word, and call it original, or factory original, or as manufactured, or something that doesn't cast others in a pejorative light?
As judges, we are heavily counseled and instructed to call items either Typical Factory Production, or Not Typical Factory Production. correct and incorrect have no place in the NCRS jargon.
It is funny how so many car people get so protective on their personal likes, and dismiss anything else. I love Corvettes of all kinds and respect the efforts and ingenuity that owners show in making their cars the way want it. I also enjoy all makes of cars. The NCRS keeps coming up as being only open to flight judging cars. Quite the contrary, they offer many categories, here are some, with brief description, sorry if I left any out:
Flight Judging, Restored Cars
Bowtie Judging, Original non restored cars, with educational merits
Sam Foltz Award, Farthest driven to a National Convention and get Top Flight Award
Founders Award, Write an article for NCRS, Drive your car 500 miles and pass operation test
American Heritage Award, For Corvette Race Cars and Special Interest Cars
Challenge Car Award, 88-90 Race Car recognition
New Experiment for Modified Corvettes, This is being worked on only at a Natioanal Level at this point.
Well said, and pretty complete, however you left out one of my favorite awards, the Sportsman, which BTW few members have been awarded. It involves just driving a Corvette, any Corvette, to a meet and displaying it. Not hard, not judgmental, not stressful (depending on the age and distance of course), and recognized equally with the other awards at the event. There is something for everyone.
I don't know about all this talk with the NCRS and all, but I have found the most coveted award of all (for me), is the MMH award.
Although at times, this award may be quite difficult to attain, while there are other times that it can be pretty easy to obtain. But the fact of the matter is, the MMH award is truly obtainable to each and every one of us.
Fortunately the MMH award has no specific guidelines, judges, or categories, and it's applicable to both original and/or modified vehicles.
I do hope the NCRS continues to roll along, as it has been, and hopefully always will be a great source for expertise and originality. Some of which I hope to solicit and reference their information while rebuilding my '63.
But in the meantime, I have pretty much obtained the MMH award every time I go out in the garage and see my cars there. Both the one's that are finished, and the one that is not
As judges, we are heavily counseled and instructed to call items either Typical Factory Production, or Not Typical Factory Production. correct and incorrect have no place in the NCRS jargon.
And thanks to Dave Burroughs for that modification.
And also, the FDICC, which NCRS borrowed with the letters switched around.
And for the new style judging sheets with Originalty and condition in separate columns.
12-05-2017, 06:51 PM
Well said Baja. NCRS is NOT a social club...don't believe it was ever meant to be. Not to say I haven't made some friends through the organization over the years. Is NCRS for everyone...Hell NO!! But, that's perfectly fine. I don't belong to a bridge club or the Elks or a Rotary Club or any other social club...not my thing. I have zero issues with the guys that want to do with their Corvette whatever they see fit...restored to factory spec, resto-moded or simply cobbled together to keep it running so they can enjoy driving it. The love of these cars should not be affected by how we enjoy them...each to their own...live and let live. My personal '67 is a multi-time NCRS Top Flight car that is driven 5000 miles per year. So, don't be jumping on that old band wagon that the NCRS types own nothing but trailer queens and don't appreciate them for what they were built for...to drive...nothing could be further from the truth.
