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Ok, so you think NCRS judging is difficult......

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Old 12-01-2017, 07:05 PM   #1
mikelj
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Default Ok, so you think NCRS judging is difficult......

I used to restore and take '67 and '68 Shelbys to judging. They are judged by an organization known as SAAC (Shelby American Auto Club). After a few years of beating my head against an opaque brick wall to figure out how to restore a car to meet their criteria (they have no manuals or books about any of it, only the few judges they have know), and what their criteria even was, which was never clear, I gave up after a National meet. I had a conversation with one of their judging leads recently that should illustrate how not to do it:

Them: "The point is the correct historic looking parts are first most important. A date coded part within a acceptable range of the build date of the car is just icing on the cake IMO. I see people getting tunnel vision on finding a date code for a given part which date codes are typically hard or impossible to see once installed and yet many other highly visible items overlooked or not corrected. Consistency across the spectrum of items makes the most sense."

Me: What is the acceptable range for a date code on a part, relative to the car's build date?

Them: "It depends on what part it is....and its based on how other similar cars were built."

Me: Thanks! Can entrants find out the list of parts and the acceptable date variances before they restore and enter the car for judging?

Them: "Yes, they need to research every part individually. If it were easy, everyone would do it."

Then a person who recently had his car done chimed in: "Amen"
Then another lead judge chimed in: "No EASY button. Plus many of this sort of publications tend to produce cookie cutter cars"

I am so glad I am in NCRS and not in SAAC judging anymore......

Last edited by mikelj; 12-01-2017 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 12-01-2017, 07:34 PM   #2
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Why don't you just be kind to yourself and enjoy the car. Whatever it is.

Why participate in the "look what I've got that you ain't got" deal?

Last edited by MikeM; 12-01-2017 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 12-01-2017, 07:44 PM   #3
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Pretty closed minded response there Mike. Is there no room whatsoever in your world for corvette owners who seek to make their car meet the as-delivered standard, AND drive it too, like many of us do?
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Old 12-01-2017, 07:58 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65hihp View Post
Pretty closed minded response there Mike. Is there no room whatsoever in your world for corvette owners who seek to make their car meet the as-delivered standard, AND drive it too, like many of us do?
Yes, closed minded as I can be. I like survivor type cars. What you see is what you got. No room for fake restorations here on my part.

You either got the beef or you don't!

I like the hobby side of cars, not the money side or the worry wart side.

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Old 12-01-2017, 08:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
Yes, closed minded as I can be. I like survivor type cars. What you see is what you got. No room for fake restorations here on my part.

You either got the beef or you don't!

I like the hobby side of cars, not the money side or the worry wart side.
I like Bowtie type cars too, but I suppose they are too "perfect" for you. But if you like rust, dirt, grime, mods, etc. and don't care about any judging, you are free to stay away from any NCRS events, you will not be missed, remember in America, there is a seat for every.......

Last edited by mikelj; 12-01-2017 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:22 PM   #6
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Chrysler 300's tail pipes ID and OD are measured in judging!
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:06 PM   #7
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People who do not have nice restored original cars are envious of those who do; simple.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:24 PM   #8
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOXIE62 View Post
People who do not have nice restored original cars are envious of those who do; simple.
Not quite....I appreciate the restored and/or original cars, but I'm not envious, and I'm certain there are others like me.

I've got a '65 vert that looks correct, but I'm sure it's not...and that's fine by me.
I'm not going to replace a part with something from Autozone, but then again, I'm fine with something that isn't date matched.

The NCRS guys have a lot of knowledge, and I have no problem learning from them. But I have absolutely no interest in getting my car judged.
I bought it to enjoy it...and that's not sweating over correct bolts...
Different strokes for different folks...there's room in the Hobby for all...

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Old 12-01-2017, 09:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelj View Post
After a few years of beating my head against an opaque brick wall to figure out how to restore a car to meet their criteria (they have no manuals or books about any of it, only the few judges they have know), and what their criteria even was, which was never clear,


Actually, that sounds somewhat like Bloomington Judging.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:51 PM   #11
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The absolute key to the success of NCRS judging is to judge the cars according to a written standard for the car(s) and not against other cars. Where the Shelby system breaks down is in their reluctance to "release the secrets" so that everyone knows what the goal is.
When the calendar flips to 2018, it will represent 38 years since Keith Kibbee's 1961-2 JG Revision revamped the format, standard deductions and interpretations for that manual AND the rest of the manuals. Keith and Judy's efforts led him to the National Judging Chair and to the President's Chair. He led the hobby even further along the right path.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:01 PM   #12
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Maybe it's just me, but if you are putting your car into judging, and they tell you you should ask around amongst the few "experts" about how it should be done, it is very frustrating. NCRS has well developed standards and guidelines, all documented and presented so that a novice, like I was ten years ago, can pick it up and actually make sense of it. SAAC has about 5 people who know everything, as they judge your car, but they never document anything. They say. just ask us, but even that is frustrating. It is like the old Damon Runyon character who is 7 feet tall and wants to shoot craps, but only in his hat, which he holds above your head, and then he tells you if you won or lost, since you can't see the dice. But they refuse to document anything, or even give you a score sheet before the meet, as they change all the time, they say. NCRS is just head an shoulders above this, of course if you care about such frivolity..........
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Old 12-02-2017, 11:03 AM   #13
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The factory produced cookie-cutter cars. If as-delivered is the goal, they should be striving for cookie-cutter cars. I was a member of SAAC in the early days and really enjoyed it. Whereas NCRS started out as a restoration organization, SAAC was more of an owners club. Almost all the SAAC cars were modified to some degree and the individual uniqueness made it interesting. When the focus shifted to as-delivered it became increasingly boring. Row after row of identical cars. Envious? Not even close.

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Old 12-02-2017, 11:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOXIE62 View Post
People who do not have nice restored original cars are envious of those who do; simple.
Good one there, Moxie.

Oh, I'm sorry, you were serious.

Some of us own Corvettes for the sports car aspect of the vehicle. Speed and handling. Hence the reason a lot of the typical Chevrolet cheap and heavy parts no longer reside on my car (don't worry, they're all piled up in the corner of the garage for the wife to sell with the car the day after my funeral).
When I want to ride in something original I just borrow my wife's Ford SUV. Amusingly, it will probably out accelerate or out corner most any C1 in the process.

Remember Moxie, these are Chevrolets (GM's cheap car division), not Ferraris or Rolls Royces. There's no place for snobbery when driving a Chevrolet.
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Old 12-02-2017, 11:44 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Remember Moxie, these are Chevrolets (GM's cheap car division), not Ferraris or Rolls Royces. There's no place for snobbery when driving a Chevrolet.
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Old 12-02-2017, 11:51 AM   #16
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I enjoy my car because the black paint is like a mirror and deep as Crater Lake.

I enjoy my car because the interior is black leather and all the details are flawless, not sloppy.

I enjoy my car because it feels, sounds and smells just like I remember these cars did 50 years ago.

I enjoy my car because almost all the mods I have made are subtle and invisible to most except the most **** OCD examiner.

I enjoy my car because I upgraded certain aspects in order to make it more fun to drive.

I enjoy my car because I built it to be rattle and leak free.

I enjoy my car because It handles a helluva lot better than it did when it rolled off the assembly line.

Probably the reason I like my car best is because it still has 327 (331 actually) cubic inches and looks original (except for the headers), but it can dust off any stock C4 (including ZR1), C5 (including Z06) and most stock C6s with LS3 engine. Its top speed is well over 150 (although I never dared go above 155), and gets about 23 MPG at a 75-80 MPH (I live in NJ ) cruise.

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Old 12-02-2017, 12:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Remember Moxie, these are Chevrolets (GM's cheap car division), not Ferraris or Rolls Royces. There's no place for snobbery when driving a Chevrolet.


Hence, I have to laugh to myself whenever these arguments get re-hashed every couple weeks or so. The great majority of people who "collect" old cars live in rural areas. The smart money...........people from urban areas..... see no value in these relics, and therefore the false economics related to them will auto-correct when the market dries up in the very near future.

You people who think your ancestors are going to be rich some day because of your old, junk Chevy have got another thing coming. You'd best tell your neighbor, Homer, to get on his John Deere backhoe and dig ya a big ole hole in the nigh corner of the back forty. Get ya some white velvet and silk and gussie up the interior. Then tell the kinfolk ta bury you in your antique treasure. The rest will be turned into kitchen appliances before long.

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Old 12-02-2017, 12:15 PM   #18
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Unless someone else wants to pay to make my car like their view of a correct Corvette, whatever that is, I really have never understood all the jealousy and frankly third-grade comments one person has about another's car.

I think it's juvenile, or perhaps a serious self-esteem issue with some folks, but it's why some folks hate the Corvette "better than you" mentality.
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Old 12-02-2017, 12:22 PM   #19
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This is why I dont belong to any car clubs anymore. I like all types of cars and the people that enjoy the hobby also. I joined a club when I bought my 63. First meeting a fellow member says what do u have? I say 63 coupe. He says they r not much and proceeds to tell me how bad they ride and how bad they r built. I say what do u have? He says a 74 convertible. I tell him nice car. Never went back. I like NCRS cars and original un-restored and hot rods. I seem to be going to more NSRA shows and Good Guys shows.

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Old 12-02-2017, 12:29 PM   #20
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I RACE my car. SO, if someone says that my car is "not NCRS correct", just meet me on track.
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