Silverrick

I'm pretty new to the site; so, please forgive me if this subject has been addressed in the past.

I have two questions, with subpart:

1. Can a date code correct, counter exchange (CE) engine/block with a re-stamping of the engine suffix/build data and partial vin ever be claimed as "Matching Numbers"? Any impact on NCRS or Bloomington judging?

2. Can an engine, original to the car, that has been rebuilt with the engine stamp pad decked, later be re-stamped with engine suffix/build data and partial vin ever be claimed as "Matching Numbers"? Again, any impact on NCRS or Bloomington judging?

At the recent auctions in Arizona and Florida, I am beginning to see a trend towards the claim that these are "Matching Numbers" vehicles. I don't know and seek guidance.

Nowhere Man

Number one is NO number two is no with a huge maybe behind it. You. Can twist the term numbers matching into anything you want to suit your needs but bottom line the samp pad must retain the GM stamp that matches the vin tag. Watching those auctions should be for enternament purpose only.

Mike67nv

In an attempt to get rid of all the “misunderstanding” out there (and not from just new members), the CE engine stamp means Chevrolet Engine. It was started in 1968 to identify blocks furnished under the 5 year, 50K mile warranty program. It was also used for over the counter engine/block sales. A “CE” block adds no judging credit to a car, it’s just another replacement engine.

Your second question gets into uncharted territory and you'll get opinions all over the map. But, to most people, a re-stamp is a re-stamp.

Unfortunately, the term “Matching Numbers” has become a misinterpreted free for all in the classic car world.

Mr D.

Do your self a favor and just forget the term "Matching Numbers" as it has way to many meanings these days. Auctions should be the first red flag followed up with used car salesmen.

Never ever trust someone saying this car is Matching Numbers unless you 100% know what to look for and look at to verify.

Silverrick

I sure tend to agree. But the term "Matching Numbers" is everywhere nowadays! With rampant, escalating fraud in the sales of classic cars, particularly mid-year Corvettes, I just don't know who to trust. I am even seeing NCRS and Bloomington judged cars with suspect numbers.

And, if you don't claim "Matching Numbers", no one wants your car; or, they want to offer you half its value.

Discouraging and frustrating at the same time!

Nowhere Man

BG gave up judging stamp pads and NCRS only allows I think 40 points for the numbers on the stamp pad. and this fraud is nothing new. been going on for 30 years or so

provette67

And to go a step further on question #2

2. Can an engine, original to the car, that has been rebuilt with the engine stamp pad decked, later be re-stamped with engine suffix/build data and partial vin ever be claimed as "Matching Numbers"?

How are you ever going to prove that the stamp was original before the pad was decked? Because maybe someone has an old picture?? That does not mean the block in question is the same one now. Buyers do not or should not believe all of the stories of the owners. I mean like it or not an original motor car brings more money. So there is built in motive for such stories. Same thing with judging. The judges can only judge what they see. Despite all of the dog ate my homework stories.

provette67

This is so true "Most sellers of mid-year vettes don't mean that (if you pin them down). Especially the sellers with restamped motors

kellsdad

If a person doesn't pay double what a car is worth because they fell for the "matching numbers" sales pitch and didn't do their due dilligence, then they won't have to accept "half its value" when they want to sell. It seems to me the people who get burned are the ones who do their due dilligence after the purchase rather than before. Trying to finesse the meaning of "matching numbers" won't correct the mistake of paying too much for a car.

68hemi

Regarding the 2nd part of your question for impact on judging here you go.

POSTED ORIGINALLY BY JOHN Z

Although some people see a car with a "CE" block as having reduced resale value, NCRS judging has recognized the stamp-pad issue in the scoring system for the engine block - of the 613 total points allocated to the engine block (out of 4500 for the whole car), 525 are for the casting number and casting date, and only 88 are assigned to the stamp pad (25 for the engine plant stamp, 25 for the assembly plant VIN derivative, and 38 for pad appearance and broach marks). If you have an acceptable casting number and date and a "blank pad", you can still Top Flight, as you can lose 270 points on the car and still make it, and only 88 are assigned to the stamp pad. END.


REGARDING MATCHING NUMBERS.
Matching numbers is a term created by the hobby to substitute for original engine but does not necessarily mean the same thing.

The real problem with all of this is that there is no WEBSTER'S definition of numbers matching for the collector car hobby or even any other definition that the collector car hobby can agree on. The best thing you can ask of a seller is "can you without a doubt prove that this car has it's BORN WITH engine?" If they can't and the engine has the correct casting number, is date code correct cast, has the correct stamping for the engine represented, correct V.I.N. stamping to match the car then it is numbers matching at least regarding the engine. I goes deeper with determining if the broach marks APPEAR to be original but those too can be reproduced.

itsforfun

"Numbers Matching" not only includes the engine block, but virtually every major part or assembly on, not only Corvettes, but all GM cars.

Virtually every part supplied to the General included, the suppliers part number, and in some cases, a GM number (stamped or cast into the part by the supplier). Additionally, a date stamp or code was sometimes included.
These numbers, codes, dates, and specific applications are well documented, especially in the Corvette hobby- if you haven't seen a Corvette judging manual, you will be surprised the details and documentation which been assembled over the years.

Simply, "Matching Numbers" becomes a very complex issue, hence NCRS.
So, if you are buying, Beware!
Don't believe anything you are told, an only about half what you see!

dmaxx3500

best bet is get the NCRS judging manual,read it till your 1/2 blind,[5-10 times],then get some-one that has looked at 50-100 cars[like your want] and go look at one

you will learn real quick whats real

tach drive 61

I eliminated all concerns when shopping for my vintage corvette NOM was the goal ! my car does have a CE/512 block 327 that I purchased in its wooden crate . forged crank .

provette67

BG has not exactly given up judging the stamp pads. Here are the guidelines.

Reduce the owners’ stress levels related to reproduction stampings.

Reduce the inspectors’ perceived liability for not detecting the “easily detectable”.

Shift standard for OEM stamps from “Reasonably Undetectable” to “Undectable”

Distinguish and elevate the pride/prestige of vehicles with OEM stamps/tags.

Reduce the incentive to make reproduction stamps indistinguishable from OEM.

Keep Gold Certificates within reach of vehicles within 95% factory appearance; those with replacement engines installed will be identified as such, those with OEM engines will be recognized as such.

Keep the policy & procedures easily understood and easy to follow.

Give owners options to “Declare” reproduction stamps w/out penalty.

Give inspectors options to use all available data to determine OEM

Change the mistaken impression that GoldCertified always means Original engine

Silverrick

I have truly endeavored to read, review and consider each and every posting. It just seems that the "all mighty" dollar has supplanted the fun and enjoyment of collecting American Classic Cars, especially mid-year Corvettes. Everyone, even the judging authorities and gurus, have succumbed to the frauds and misrepresentations of those looking to make a quick buck! There is apparently no "easy or convenient" answer to what makes a "matching numbers" car. More opinions than there are authentic Corvettes--whoops--there I go introducing a new term--authentic.

I am hopelessly lost. I agree 100% with an earlier posting: Forget numbers matching, forget values and buy yourself a car that you drive the daylights out of and enjoy the ride!! Don't even think about selling it--leave it in your estate!

Nowhere Man

Numbers matching is easy to answer. Is the stamp pad a real GM union line worker stamp. If you answer yes then does that match he vin number of said car. If you answer yes then you have a numbers matching car. If you answered no to any of them then you don’t.

68hemi

Don't get yourself worked up over all of this but DO be aware of what is out there so you can evaluate cars on a one on one basis. The fact is that the seller will likely have his own opinion and anything you provide may fall on deaf ears.
I look at a properly build and re-stamped engine as nothing more than a good reproduction aftermarket part. I DO see that value in a PROVEN born with engine but they are few and far between these 50 plus years later especially on the hipo models that were beat on and often blown beyond repair or discarded back in the day before there was any real value assigned to them.

Silverrick

So simple, why didn't I think of it? Why, because I'm one of the 1000's that are relatively new (or not so new but nevertheless untrained) to the C1/C2 world and needing a lot of help.

Many thanks for distilling the issue to the very basics!!

Well done and truly understandable!

Nowhere Man

The trouble lies when you start with the stamp pad. Most don’t know if it’s real or not. The other problem that muds up the water is all the individual components are the correct numbers and dates. While that is most important for many reasons but they lack stamped vin numbers besides four speeds. So how do you prove a part like the cylinder head came with a car?

Silverrick

Nowhere Man and 68hemi:

You guys are calming influences in a world of uncertainty. I really enjoy and appreciate your intellectual remarks and input.

It significantly helps me in maintaining a sense of order as to an approach regarding those unique issues surrounding the purchase, nomenclature and visceral understanding of a mid-year vette.

Thanks so much from a neophyte that constantly looks to a big brother for help!