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Looking at a possible purchase of a 67 with crate motor and Tremec 5 speed installed by owner. Saw this in another post and I need to educate my self to be sure I am not buying some more problems.
"Are you going to convert to removable crossmember ? - You dont have to, but your mechanic will have "fun" doing the swap with the engine in the car. Its possible but a PITA. Converting to removable crossmember will cost more."
Seller installed motor and Tremec as a unit without modifying crossmember. Stock crossmember not removeable.
" Bell housing alignment - It will cost more in shop time to do it properly (I would say more than one TKO has been slapped in ignoring this). If you get lucky and runout is in spec, then not much extra time really, but if you need correction you have to deal with offset dowels etc... more time and parts."
What are we checking here? Mounting surface on bellhousing parallel to flywheel?
" Driveshaft angles - Again, if you bolt everything in and you get the u-joint operating angle difference in spec, then you can dodge a bullet. If not (as in my case), I ended up doing all my body mounts to get the body high enough to lift the rear of the TKO and get rid of the vibration !"
Assume driveshaft anle has to be parallel with differential input angle. Assume this is the u-joint operating angle. What is the spec tolerance?
I will check the car to be sure the u-joints do not rub the body but assume if everything is in spec there will be no vibration. Correct?
Anything you can help me with to ask the seller/installer to be sure it is a correct installation will help.
Randy
Last edited by 66RBS; 02-16-2018 at 12:42 PM.
Reason: added photo
I’ve stuffed a TKO600 into a 67 with a non removable crossmember...it’s a fight but can be done...your only concern there is if you have to go back in for something...clutch or whatever...it’s just tight and making your crossmember removable is the easier way to go. None of this is a showstopper.
Dialing in the bell housing is something that the owner should have done...ask the question as to if he did it or not. BTW: I’ve never seen one not need to be aligned with offset dowel pins. This is critical to get right.
Drive the car and you will know if there is an issue with the ujoints binding...this issue is more common on the cars that have swapped in an LS motor.
What Crunch said plus this: Dialing in the bellhousing is making sure the center of the bellhouse opening (where the trans mounts) is in-line with the centerline of the crank. You don't want a side load on the trans input shaft. The installation instructions that came with the conversion should have a place to log the results you get from measuring the alignment both before and after offset dowel pins are used. You could ask for those measurements if you are super concerned.
Looking at a possible purchase of a 67 with crate motor and Tremec 5 speed installed by owner. Saw this in another post and I need to educate my self to be sure I am not buying some more problems.
Randy
All of the technical items that have been mentioned are relevant for a midyear Tremec conversion, but they are all manageable and the results are entirely worth the extra effort.
Regarding the topic of installation and removal, it is not very difficult to get the Tremec installed or removed without modifying the crossmember and without removing the engine. However, the appropriate procedure is not at all obvious or intuitive.
The key is to carefully follow the instructions I have attached to this post. These instructions came with my Keisler Tremec kit many years ago. I don't think I would have ever figured this out on my own, but it works beautifully if you follow the specified sequence.
The only special tool that you really need is a 3-axis transmission jack similar to the one in the attached photo. I purchased mine from Harbor Freight.
Getting the Tremec installed requires a series of steps that involve lifting and/or tilting the transmission into certain positions and then holding it in that position while you perform an operation. The transmission jack makes this very easy.
What Crunch said plus this: Dialing in the bellhousing is making sure the center of the bellhouse opening (where the trans mounts) is in-line with the centerline of the crank. You don't want a side load on the trans input shaft.
Owner/installer doesn't remember doing this. Would it work to loosen the trans. mounting bolts and rotate engine by hand and trans would self align?
What about the clutch/pressure plate. If clutch is off center wouldn't it force the trans input shaft to be off center too?
Owner/installer doesn't remember doing this. Would it work to loosen the trans. mounting bolts and rotate engine by hand and trans would self align?
What about the clutch/pressure plate. If clutch is off center wouldn't it force the trans input shaft to be off center too?
no, it won't self align as the centerhole in the bellhousing determines the relationship with the rotating centerline of the engine; the entire bellhousing needs to be shifted and there is no way of self centering.
how many miles on the transmission since installing?
About 3000 miles. New clutch and flywheel installed same time
Randy
My understanding is that there are two reasons why bell housing alignment is more critical for a Tremec than for a Muncie:
1) The input shaft for a Tremec rides in a roller bearing that is not very tolerant of the wobble that would be introduced if the pilot bushing is not concentric with the input shaft roller bearing. Muncies use a ball bearing on the input shaft and they are more tolerant of some misalignment.
2) Misalignment can make the Tremec harder to shift.
I would be uneasy if I purchased a C2 with a recent Tremec installation and the seller could not "remember" whether he aligned the bell housing. It's a rather tedious job to do the alignment, and not something that someone would easily forget.
Also, most Tremec conversion installation instructions tell you to document that you did the alignment process to keep the transmission in warranty. I took careful notes and several photos in case I ever needed to make a warranty claim.
Aligning the bell housing is critical AND a pain in the ***...especially doing it under the car with the engine in...its not something that could fall into the "I don't remember" category. It often requires ordering and installing a new set of offset dowel pins to get the bell dialed in correctly along with the proper tools.
Based on what you said, you have to assume it wasn't done and the warranty is now suspect. You can use this as bargaining leverage or you can go find another car that was given due diligence.
In other words, what else hasn't been done properly? EVERYTHING on this car is suspect now.
Aligning the bell housing is critical AND a pain in the ***...especially doing it under the car with the engine in...its not something that could fall into the "I don't remember" category. It often requires ordering and installing a new set of offset dowel pins to get the bell dialed in correctly along with the proper tools.
Thanks guys. Seller said he would ask Tom so the verdict is still out. Maybe Tom did most of the work. They did not cut the crossmember so engine/trans went in as a unit. Install about 3 years old and seller is older than me (73) so I’ll give him a pass on don’t remember.
It is a nice car so I will due some more due diligence. I’ll ask to see the Tremec installation instructions which I saw in a folder the first visit.
Id agree, if its got 3k on it with no issues, keep on driving it, especially if its shifts fine.
if the u-joints aren't rubbing now, its good to go. If there is a vibration, youll feel it cruising down the road. Not a difficult fix, but time consuming. My 63 required a modified transmission mount to clear the body. But 63s have different body mounts.
Thanks guys. Seller said he would ask Tom so the verdict is still out. Maybe Tom did most of the work. They did not cut the crossmember so engine/trans went in as a unit. Install about 3 years old and seller is older than me (73) so I’ll give him a pass on don’t remember.
It is a nice car so I will due some more due diligence. I’ll ask to see the Tremec installation instructions which I saw in a folder the first visit.
As I noted in Post #4, the crossmember does NOT need to be cut in in order to install the Tremec with the engine in the car. The Keisler installation instructions attached to Post #4 explain how to accomplish this.
Attached to this post are the instructions Keisler provided for aligning the bell housing. They make a pretty big deal about how important this is, and they even include a "sign off" sheet at the end to be used if there is a warranty claim. For the records I created, I used a hand-written log sheet and a set of photos of the final result.
I've done this alignment process twice because I've used my Tremec with two different engines. The first time, I installed the Tremec while the engine stayed in the car, and performed the alignment procedure with the engine in the car (see attached photo).
The second time I did the alignment with the engine out of the car, then installed the engine/trans as a unit.
Doing the alignment with the engine in the car was more tedious because I had to get out from under the car a zillion times to turn the crank snout 1/4 turn, then get back under the car to see and record the resulting measurement. However, having an assistant to turn the crank would have made that much less of a hassle.
My main point is that if you decide the alignment needs to be checked, do it with the engine in the car. The transmission CAN be removed with the engine in the car and the stock cross member in place.
My guess is that the entire operation of remove/align/reinstall could be completed in one day.
The easiest way to put the TKO in without the removable crossmember is by pulling the engine and putting it back in attached. As others have said its totally fine like that unless you need to replace a clutch or remove it for any reason because nobody likes pulling an engine to do a clutch. I once spoke to a mechanic that *only* works on C2/C3 Corvettes and he said he no longer accepted clutch changes on TKO cars without a removable crossmember.
Before I even knew anything about TKO's or even owned my first Vette, I test drove one with a TKO conversion. The owner said he would not do TKO again because it is hard to shift and has had issues. Looking back in reflection, it seems likely the installation was done without checking runout. I dont know how many miles it takes for problems to show up, but if it shifts ok after 3000 miles that seems like a decent start. Mu understanding is very bad misalignment causes immediate shift issues but even minor misalignment can cause bearing issues and leaks down the track.
For driveshaft angle issues just make sure you run up to 70MPH, mine vibrated badly at 65 before I addressed the issue.
02-16-2018, 12:37 PM
Tremec install questions
