C1/C2 NCRS Vintage Air deductions
03-16-2018, 09:39 AM
#41
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While that is true for midyears in general, I think it’s fair to acknowledge trying to fool people by adding “factory” AC is a tougher trick that you make it sound on a ‘63. There were only 278 AC 63s originally, and every one that shows up on a show field is looked at sideways. People immediately check the VIN to see if it falls in the right range and look for the 1963 only AC parts that are not reproduced and are very, very difficult to find.
Anything can be faked, but adding AC on a ‘63 while trying to pass it off as original is not an easy task and all the parts are not at swap meets.
Anything can be faked, but adding AC on a ‘63 while trying to pass it off as original is not an easy task and all the parts are not at swap meets.
03-16-2018, 10:01 AM
#43
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03-16-2018, 10:05 AM
#44
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03-16-2018, 10:40 AM
#45
Team Owner
Thread Starter
03-16-2018, 10:42 AM
#46
The NCRS has taken the same stance with added side exhaust. If detected, and there's a long list of items checked, then it's a full deduct (although not as severe as 300 pts). I have been an NCRS member since 83, have Top Flighted and Duntoved more than 1 car. It does seem that the "circle of judges brotherhood" cars get more of a pass than a new guy showing up for the first time. I complained numerous times about judging inconsistencies. How can my 67 400 hp engine compartment get ZERO deducts at one Regional meet, then lose 100 pts at the next Regional meet 3 months later?? Then lose only 10 pts at the National? Judges tend to "judge" to THEIR knowledge and perception which is often outside of the Judging Guide. I dropped out for 10 yrs because of the judging "politics" and just now came back hoping the org had changed or the problem had "aged out". it sounds like they finally put all the judges in one room and are all in "one accord". I'll take consistency over inconsistency if I know what the deduct is before I spend the money to get the car there.
PS. They do judge "restoration" motors harshly (if detected).
PS. They do judge "restoration" motors harshly (if detected).
03-16-2018, 11:03 AM
#47
Melting Slicks
03-16-2018, 11:03 AM
#48
Drifting
Then that's what the NCRS should do instead of dicking around pretending to be inclusive by levying stupefying point deductions to a popular modification.
YOU should be thankful people like me still engage in the hobby (11 year NCRS member and occasional judge) rather than abandoning it entirely keeping our horrid, modified cars off the judging circuit.
YOU should be thankful people like me still engage in the hobby (11 year NCRS member and occasional judge) rather than abandoning it entirely keeping our horrid, modified cars off the judging circuit.
03-16-2018, 11:10 AM
#49
Melting Slicks
The NCRS has taken the same stance with added side exhaust. If detected, and there's a long list of items checked, then it's a full deduct (although not as severe as 300 pts). I have been an NCRS member since 83, have Top Flighted and Duntoved more than 1 car. It does seem that the "circle of judges brotherhood" cars get more of a pass than a new guy showing up for the first time. I complained numerous times about judging inconsistencies. How can my 67 400 hp engine compartment get ZERO deducts at one Regional meet, then lose 100 pts at the next Regional meet 3 months later?? Then lose only 10 pts at the National? Judges tend to "judge" to THEIR knowledge and perception which is often outside of the Judging Guide. I dropped out for 10 yrs because of the judging "politics" and just now came back hoping the org had changed or the problem had "aged out". it sounds like they finally put all the judges in one room and are all in "one accord". I'll take consistency over inconsistency if I know what the deduct is before I spend the money to get the car there.
PS. They do judge "restoration" motors harshly (if detected).
PS. They do judge "restoration" motors harshly (if detected).
03-16-2018, 11:17 AM
#50
Drifting
simple solution, have an aftermarket A/C class. This way everyone starts on an equal basis. Perfect car otherwise would still be the goal.
03-16-2018, 11:22 AM
#51
Melting Slicks
Going forward a high scoring second flight car with added A/C will be well understood and nothing to be ashamed of. JMHO
03-16-2018, 11:25 AM
#52
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I would think the hit of 300 pts would actually be more than dropping in a LS motor.
Moral of the story is play by there rules, if your car is modified don't you go thru the judging process to learn what else is incorrect?
Moral of the story is play by there rules, if your car is modified don't you go thru the judging process to learn what else is incorrect?
03-16-2018, 11:25 AM
#53
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2019 Corvette of the Year Winner
St. Jude Donor '15
Don't be so hard on yourself Frank. It is what it is!! Your description of "going to the ball" is perfect. I have a lot of respect for the NCRS, and what that organization, and it's members, provide to the hobby. If you don't want to play that game, then don't. I commend them for fixing the "consistency" issue as pertains to add on AC. The "valuation" of those points, IMO, is fair. I now know the rules, the amount of the deduct, and I can choose to get judged, or not get judged......my call. It will never be a perfect system, but it CAN be a consistent system.
Now, my "I told you so".......If you would have let me bring your car to the "dark side", you would have received NO deducts for your vintage air in the "concours class" judging, and your car would have been worth at least twice the money.
Now, my "I told you so".......If you would have let me bring your car to the "dark side", you would have received NO deducts for your vintage air in the "concours class" judging, and your car would have been worth at least twice the money.
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03-16-2018, 11:53 AM
#54
Instructor
Out of curiosity, wonder what the point deduction would be with NCRS, if you had a factory air car, without the compressor and brackets, in other words missing the component? My '64 is a hell'va lot easier to tune up, and weighs 45lbs less!
03-16-2018, 11:54 AM
#55
Team Owner
Thread Starter
03-16-2018, 12:01 PM
#56
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I got a 93% score first time ever judged and that was at a Regional; hardly ashamed. I found from the judges a bunch of nit-picking things I had missed which I've since diligently corrected. I've said a hundred times that my car is a better car for the experience
I hope my rather spotty experience with the Vintage Air scoring somehow contributed to the NCRS moving forward with standardizing the judging.
Just a bit taken aback that a modification formerly taking hits from 12 to 45 (70 in my case) points has suddenly become a 300 pt minimum deduction...
I didn't see that coming but so be it...
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Brian VH McHale (03-16-2018)
03-16-2018, 12:05 PM
#57
Team Owner
Thread Starter
03-16-2018, 12:29 PM
#58
Instructor
That's not quite true. I can't get the chart to adjudicate, so you'll have to follow the lines.2. DRIVEN MILEAGE POINTS
To encourage driving, any car entered in Flight Judging which is driven by the owner or a family member to an event is eligible to receive additional points based on miles driven to the event so long as the car receives a minimum 75.0 net score.
Mileage points are limited to 10% of net scoring.
Points are calculated using the actual mileage driven to the event as reported on the Judging Summary sheet by the owner.
This mileage is multiplied by 1 % (.01). Using this number, and not rounding up, figures beyond the tenths place are dropped and the result is added to the net score to arrive at the final Grand Total Score, Grand Total cannot exceed 100.
For example, a car driven 37 miles to an event would have .3 added; while a car driven 375 miles would have 3.7 points added.
Some calculated examples follow:
Net Score Mileage Mileage Points Grand Total
87.8 435 4.3 92.1
87.8 1135 8.7(10%Max.) 96.5
93.8 50 0.5 94.3
72.8 138 0.0 (Under 75.0) 72.8
98.7 299 2.9 100
96.1 9 0.0 (.09) 96.1
Very detailed. I got 100% at a Mid Atlantic regional on a 96 point car. Drove 450 miles.
Many years ago now.
John
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Chuck Gongloff (03-17-2018)
03-16-2018, 12:31 PM
#59
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So, if I understand this correctly, a deduction of 300 points out of a total of 4500 possible points is roughly 0.07 (actually 0.0666666) percent.
So the deduction for add-on A/C is less than 1%.
Assuming the rest of the car is perfect (and we know that really never happens), the possible score with this situation is 99.3%. Is my math correct?
99.3% is still a Top Flight car.
I am actually surprised that the penalty is not higher. Something like
a point deduction of 1% (i.e. 450 points for a C2) AND a stipulation that the car cannot receive an award higher than a Second Flight.
I don't have to like the decision, or the point penalty, but at least there is now a consistent policy for this issue.
So the deduction for add-on A/C is less than 1%.
Assuming the rest of the car is perfect (and we know that really never happens), the possible score with this situation is 99.3%. Is my math correct?
99.3% is still a Top Flight car.
I am actually surprised that the penalty is not higher. Something like
a point deduction of 1% (i.e. 450 points for a C2) AND a stipulation that the car cannot receive an award higher than a Second Flight.
I don't have to like the decision, or the point penalty, but at least there is now a consistent policy for this issue.
03-16-2018, 12:37 PM
#60
Race Director
No, 300/4500= 6.7%
Max you could get is 93.3% if everything else is 100%.
Doug
Max you could get is 93.3% if everything else is 100%.
Doug
So, if I understand this correctly, a deduction of 300 points out of a total of 4500 possible points is roughly 0.07 (actually 0.0666666) percent.
So the deduction for add-on A/C is less than 1%.
Assuming the rest of the car is perfect (and we know that really never happens), the possible score with this situation is 99.3%. Is my math correct?
99.3% is still a Top Flight car.
I am actually surprised that the penalty is not higher. Something like
a point deduction of 1% (i.e. 450 points for a C2) AND a stipulation that the car cannot receive an award higher than a Second Flight.
I don't have to like the decision, or the point penalty, but at least there is now a consistent policy for this issue.
So the deduction for add-on A/C is less than 1%.
Assuming the rest of the car is perfect (and we know that really never happens), the possible score with this situation is 99.3%. Is my math correct?
99.3% is still a Top Flight car.
I am actually surprised that the penalty is not higher. Something like
a point deduction of 1% (i.e. 450 points for a C2) AND a stipulation that the car cannot receive an award higher than a Second Flight.
I don't have to like the decision, or the point penalty, but at least there is now a consistent policy for this issue.
The following 2 users liked this post by AZDoug:
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