Frankie the Fink

emccomas

And I did get a few answers, pretty much what I expected.

emccomas

Yep, I agree completely, and I do NOT have a solution for it.

One suggestion I heard many years ago was that once a car started the judging process (at a regional level - event), then no further issues could cause a point deduction unless the owner had a chance to resolve the issue without penalty. They would be noted on the next judging sheet, but since they were not identified in the first regional judging, they would not count against the owner at this point.

However, they could and would be counted against the car at another regional or national if (and only if) they had previously been identified.

Example:

Regional #1 - car gets a 2 point deduction for item one, but item 2 is not detected.

Regional #2 - owner fixes item 1, and gets the points back, but item 2 is now detected, which would normally be a 5 point deduction. A note is made on the judging sheet, but no point deduction is made for item 2.

Regional #3 - owner fixes item 2, but item 3 is now detected, which would nomally be a 10 point deduction. No deduction, but a note is made on the judging sheet.

National - owner decides not to fix item 3, so now a 10 point deduction is made. Item 4 is detected and noted, but no point deduction is made.

Regional #4 - owner has not fixed item 3 or item 4, so deductions for both items are made.

The idea was shot down quickly.

MikeM

I saw that happen many times.

For example, remember the guy that insisted/claimed ncrs was a business. He infrequently posts here, now after he was banned there.

Rich Yanulis

Go read post #7.......a different perspective.

MikeM

Inconsistencies?

What about the '63-'64 JG that has had serious errors in it from the first edition? Some well meaning informed judges cal it by the book and some ignore the errors in the book.

Been going on for decades now despite many attempts to fix that little problem. And it would be so easy to fix.

emccomas

Nothing that a little "accident" would not cure. Otherwise, I know of no other solution (just kidding)

I am all in favor of term limits for ALL NCRS official positions, elected or appointed. You need new blood, and a different set of eyes / pre-conceived notions after a while.

But I know better than to suggest this idea "over there"

emccomas

He was / is right, NCRS IS a business.

He just should not have kept posting it over there.

mike coletta

Here we go!!!!!

fyreline

If you go over to the NCRS web site and look at the latest discussion on aftermarket A/C point deductions, it rapidly becomes apparent that little or nothing has been solved. There is still ample confusion and disagreement about what counts for what.

Heck of a way to run a "business", and pretty embarrassing.

Frankie the Fink

Yes, one member over there said that they had a big meeting about the Vintage Air A/C issue at a NC meet and decided the max deduct was rightfully 175 points.

More data for my contention that the recent standard (300 pt minimum) was purposefully meant to keep aftermarket A/C cars out of the Top Flight category...

The poster then courageously said the National Chairman's decision was wrong. Apparently this edict didn't exactly quell the rancor on the topic

65hihp

My guess is that it has been resolved insofar as Regional and National meets. I think the National Team Leaders all have the same sheet of music now, and will be using it to judge added RPOptions when they are observed / detected. How many points are taken off for those added items will probably vary to some degree.
When you get down to chapter meets, there is no telling how added options will fare. I imagine there will be wide varience from meet to meet.
The important thing is that we all keep having fun enjoying our corvettes.

Frankie the Fink

When my 63 was judged regionally with the Vintage Air I was asked if I was presenting the car as a factory A/C car. I replied "no", my response didn't get me much as the judging was conducted as if it was being presented as a factory A/C car.

This nuance is important; apparently aftermarket A/C is now being considered retro-fitting an RPO vs adding something non-factory (say a side view mirror). If that is the case then yes, the game has changed as far as scoring...

emccomas

Well, it seems pretty clear to me that, other than a standard deduction of 300 points right off of the top, there is not a consensus on how big of a hit an add on aftermarket A/C system will get.

The best I can determine from the thread I started on the NCRS DB is that the deduction starts at 300 points before they even start looking at the car to see what else is wrong / modified / incorrect as a result of the installation of the Vintage A/C system.

I always thought that the standard deduction was supposed to cover the entire thing. Obviously not.

I have no explanation for this one.

Frankie the Fink

A bit perplexing to be sure. How is Vintage Air, added on to a NON factory A/C car different than side pipes on an AOS body or A/C on a 435hp car ?

I'm not sure this is over

mikelj

Oh God, I hope it is.......

Frankie the Fink

Wow....58 posts on this topic over on the NCRS web site...before the thread was closed; because 'members are complaining' - guess the old guard were incensed - the folks whose cars sit under covers just waiting to be trailer-ed to the next NCRS event.

Color me shocked - I gave it about 1/2 that many -- tops!

427 Sidepipes

FtF- I have no problem with YOU. This is not criticism... simply a casual observation from a different perspective.

For years, you have been faithfully exclaiming: I'm over it... I've put it behind me... I've moved on... It is what it is... I'm proud of my high Second Flight... yet, you seem to constantly toss in a 'BUT'. The added BUT essentially means that whatever you said previously, was not the total truth... now you are going to tell us how you really feel.

Let me propose a different scenario... which disregards all the Vintage Air components you've installed. Knowing what you did AFTER the judging, you've indicated several items have been corrected... including the paint. Had this all been done PRIOR to your Flight Judging, it's quite possible you would have received a Top Flight award. Therefore, the current problem was NOT the added A/C... it was initial preparation. And if you did receive a TF award, I'm betting this would have been a moot topic.

On to judging inconsistencies. Although the NCRS strives for consistency and publishes written guidelines, itz clearly evident that HUMANS seem to interpret the written word quite differently. Presently, we can't seem to agree on what a 'minimum' deduction means. Folks get upset and complain when 'new' judging eyes yield different results... it's no different than seeking a second opinion from a doctor (where you sometimes pray for a different diagnosis).

A scab seldom heals, if you keep picking at it. Relax... enjoy your beautiful Vette... especially with the added comfort of A/C. Installing it makes total sense... except for NCRS Flight judging.

emccomas

There are quite a few people over there that are not pleased with this decision, and that quickly became apparent.

Once the thread started getting uncomfortable, they employed the "standard" discussion ending mechanism.

And it is still not clear, even over there, what the "standard deduction" is for add on A/C.

I got three different answers...

1. The maximum deduction is 300 points.
2. The starting deduction is 300 points, and then additional deductions for other items as appropriate.
3. The expected deduction, once all things were assessed would be around 300 points.

Frankie the Fink

Like I said in a previous post - I hadn't even thought about this whole topic until some friends contacted me about the new guidance. I think some 'project' feelings into my musings that simply don't exist.

If I really gave a nit about a TF, I'd have my heater box patched up or buy another one and reinstall it and the car would sail through judging. Especially with the new single-stage paint properly dulled down in all the right spots... Prob no more than a solid weekend's work.

Not interested enough to do it..
I think that says it all...