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C1/C2 NCRS Vintage Air deductions

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Old 03-15-2018, 02:53 PM   #1  
Frankie the Fink
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Default C1/C2 NCRS Vintage Air deductions

Anybody looked through their NCRS Restorer/Driveline yet ? And seen the article on codifying the deductions on C1/C2 aftermarket A/C.

If you haven't -- hold on to your butts
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:42 PM   #2  
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Excedrin for the normal headache, and Preparation H for the butt hurt. Dennis
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:05 PM   #3  
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Anybody looked through their NCRS Restorer/Driveline yet ?
Yes, I did

Frank, I immediately thought of you.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:14 PM   #4  
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I've been contacted already by four people Rich...

Basically aftermarket A/C on a C1 is a 200 point MINIMUM deduction, C2/C3s get a 300 point MINIMUM deduction. That's MINIMUM folks -- depending on the installation approach and configuration it could climb quickly above those 'floors'...

I simply don't know what the NCRS was thinking....surely they've now dissuaded a ton of those with aftermarket A/C from getting their car judged. What is really galling is their method of assuaging members' anger by stating at least your car won't be declared "Counterfeit".

And then there is sort of a tongue in cheek jibe that the huge point loss is recoverable by "Driving Points". The article smugly says that since A/C was added the car should be more comfortable to drive anyway. You would have to circle the earth twice to get those points back.

It gets better because those people on the lower end of the Top Flight scale that got by with 12 or 45 point aftermarket A/C deducts are now shot in the head for future judging without doing something else to overcome the 'hit'...

Wow, just wow...

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Old 03-15-2018, 04:59 PM   #5  
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Default Add On Air

I think it's about time NCRS did something about people who add air to there cars and not think they should be penalized. That was not the way it left the St. Louis plant. NCRS judges cars as they were built at the factory not in someone's garage. If you want to add air to your car go ahead, but if you decide to have it judged in NCRS be ready for the deductions.
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:20 PM   #6  
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I think it's about time NCRS did something about people who add air to there cars and not think they should be penalized. That was not the way it left the St. Louis plant. NCRS judges cars as they were built at the factory not in someone's garage. If you want to add air to your car go ahead, but if you decide to have it judged in NCRS be ready for the deductions.
to the T that is the way its always been they judge as delivered
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:27 PM   #7  
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I think it's about time NCRS did something about people who add air to there cars and not think they should be penalized. That was not the way it left the St. Louis plant. NCRS judges cars as they were built at the factory not in someone's garage. If you want to add air to your car go ahead, but if you decide to have it judged in NCRS be ready for the deductions.
The NCRS has always done something about it...nobody gets a "pass" on aftermarket air conditioning and never did. And I know of NO ONE that enters judging thinking they won't take a point hit for aftermarket air conditioning.

Various judging teams interpreted the judging criteria for this mod differently, sometimes between cars only 50' apart on the same judging floor. Maybe if you'd gone through regional/national judging with aftermarket A/C you'd know this.

I did and expected deductions applied uniformly to any car having aftermarket A/C (especially an identical vendor product) - I was wrong.

Now, in attempt to codify the "penalties" (which have always existed) they've gone to Draconian lengths and will disenfranchise a bunch of folks.

And I guarantee you that about 70% of the Top Flight cars are not precisely the way they left the factory. Frankly, I think a "factory appearing" but restamped engine is a far greater sin than me adding A/C to a car with its "born with", original drivetrain.

At this point I have a mostly indifferent outlook; between the screwy judging of 63s in particular and this latest bit of poorly thought out standardization, my car will never see a judging floor again...

Now the "old guard" can rail against the upstarts changing their cars from what the NCRS standards say they should be...

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Old 03-15-2018, 05:32 PM   #8  
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The NCRS has always done something about it...where have you been ? They haphazardly had a plethora of various judging criteria for deducting points for aftermarket A/C that were applied differently by different teams on different cars. Maybe if you'd gone through regional/national judging with aftermarket A/C you'd know this.

I did and expected deductions.

Now, in attempt to codify the "penalties" (which have always existed) they've gone to Draconian lengths and will disenfranchise a bunch of folks.

And I guarantee you that about 70% of the Top Flight cars are not precisely the way they left the factory.
Its all in who you know is how your car will be judged at top meet.
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:42 PM   #9  
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Frank, I think the driving points are 1% for every 100 miles so it is significant. The 300 is pretty punitive considering that a lot of NCRS members are in the south and the
club encourages driving them.....
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:55 PM   #10  
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Frank, I think the driving points are 1% for every 100 miles so it is significant. The 300 is pretty punitive considering that a lot of NCRS members are in the south and the
club encourages driving them.....
Irrelevant.

Posing that members can jump through hoops to recover points that were lost to an overly harsh standard is a deflection (not yours, that honor belongs to the NCRS).

So, you lose 85 points for incorrect paint - but 300 (again MINIMUM) for Vintage Air ? Yeah - that makes sense...

I just thought I'd share this latest info; I'll let others fight the good fight now
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:01 PM   #11  
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Personally, I think you have to decide if you are an NCRS type or a driver type guy. The vast majority of people that are into the judging thing don't want to drive their cars and they become trailer queens in order to keep from loosing points. If you are going to drive you car semi-regularly they are going to get dirty underneath and you are going to loose points.

From the beginning everyone knows the idea behind NCRS. They are REALLY more of a preservation society and that is not going to change with the exception of their NEW category of modified cars. You have to decide if you are going to maintain the car as delivered or if the modifications are more worthwhile to satisfy your individual taste. I belong to NCRS but I will never have a car judged it does not fit my life style with my cars but I believe they serve a good purpose for up and coming people in the hobby so they have a standard in which to judge their own car by.
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:46 PM   #12  
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Frank, I think the driving points are 1% for every 100 miles so it is significant. The 300 is pretty punitive considering that a lot of NCRS members are in the south and the
club encourages driving them.....
That's not quite true. I can't get the chart to adjudicate, so you'll have to follow the lines.

2. DRIVEN MILEAGE POINTS
To encourage driving, any car entered in Flight Judging which is driven by the owner or a family member to an event is eligible to receive additional points based on miles driven to the event so long as the car receives a minimum 75.0 net score.

Mileage points are limited to 10% of net scoring.

Points are calculated using the actual mileage driven to the event as reported on the Judging Summary sheet by the owner.

This mileage is multiplied by 1 % (.01). Using this number, and not rounding up, figures beyond the tenths place are dropped and the result is added to the net score to arrive at the final Grand Total Score, Grand Total cannot exceed 100.

For example, a car driven 37 miles to an event would have .3 added; while a car driven 375 miles would have 3.7 points added.

Some calculated examples follow:
Net Score Mileage Mileage Points Grand Total

87.8 435 4.3 92.1
87.8 1135 8.7(10%Max.) 96.5
93.8 50 0.5 94.3
72.8 138 0.0 (Under 75.0) 72.8
98.7 299 2.9 100
96.1 9 0.0 (.09) 96.1
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:56 PM   #13  
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Well, at least Frank finally got a their attention about dealing with the inconsistencies in deductions for non factory air. Sounds like a case of be careful what you ask for.....

As an outsider to NCRS it does seem like 300 points is a large hit. How much is the deduction for a NOM?
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:30 PM   #14  
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Maybe you should try entering in a NCCC judged event where operation, cleanliness and condition are judged vs originality.

Of course you may get hit with a deduct for orange over spray on the manifold or bell. Probably not , but you never know...

Or, just learn to sweat and drive, or join the trailer queen crowd....

Doug
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:35 PM   #15  
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Maybe you should try entering in a NCCC judged event where operation, cleanliness and condition are judged vs originality.

Of course you may get hit with a deduct for orange over spray on the manifold or bell. Probably not , but you never know...

Or, just learn to sweat and drive, or join the trailer queen crowd....

Doug
AACA is anther good option. counterfeit cars get the top award every year. NCCC is just the endless search for dirt
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:42 PM   #16  
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Originally Posted by AZDoug View Post
Maybe you should try entering in a NCCC judged event where operation, cleanliness and condition are judged vs originality.

Of course you may get hit with a deduct for orange over spray on the manifold or bell. Probably not , but you never know...

Or, just learn to sweat and drive, or join the trailer queen crowd....

Doug
Or buy a factory A/C car.
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:11 PM   #17  
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As an outsider to NCRS it does seem like 300 points is a large hit. How much is the deduction for a NOM?
C2 Deduction for Vintage Air...........300 Points Minimum
Deduction for a NOM.....................NONE

I am not a NCRS expert. But, I believe a professionally executed "Restoration Engine"
with all the correct dates, stamps and broach marks will receive no deduction.
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:32 PM   #18  
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C2 Deduction for Vintage Air...........300 Points Minimum
Deduction for a NOM.....................NONE

I am not a NCRS expert. But, I believe a professionally executed "Restoration Engine"
with all the correct dates, stamps and broach marks will receive no deduction.
Not true - I'm not an expert either but I believe you'll find:

If the block has the wrong casting number, 350-point deduction.

Correct casting number but date out of range, 175-point deduction.

Block casting number and date OK, but blank pad or detected restamp, 88-point deduction.

I guess I don't know why people are surprised about an after market AC addition getting a deduction?

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Old 03-15-2018, 08:42 PM   #19  
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When I said "professionally executed, with correct dates" I meant the correct block number and casting dates for the car it is installed in.

I will state again, I am not the expert, but believe there is no deduction.
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:49 PM   #20  
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