Question about re-stamped engine numbers
03-23-2018, 02:45 PM
#41
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Jv04 Mentioned the hard top on a 69 passing as 68 and how it did , and just by losing a few points
And even if you "know" something is true, you cannot deduct for it unless you can specifically point to it as not typical of factory production.
So here we are (you add FI and 99% of the installation is correct) but the judges see some linkage is not correct and deduct a FEW points,so this Corvette a real FI car or just missing ONE correct part?
If the car, as displayed on the judging field, and with the options and components included on the car, "APPEAR" typical of factory production (as installed), then no deduction is made.
So by their standards it's an original FI Corvette / and then people wonder why there are more FI Corvettes out there then GM ever sold
jvo4====It goes back to one of the first lessons I learned in NCRS - "In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, give the owner the benefit of the doubt."
And even if you "know" something is true, you cannot deduct for it unless you can specifically point to it as not typical of factory production.
So here we are (you add FI and 99% of the installation is correct) but the judges see some linkage is not correct and deduct a FEW points,so this Corvette a real FI car or just missing ONE correct part?
If the car, as displayed on the judging field, and with the options and components included on the car, "APPEAR" typical of factory production (as installed), then no deduction is made.
So by their standards it's an original FI Corvette / and then people wonder why there are more FI Corvettes out there then GM ever sold
jvo4====It goes back to one of the first lessons I learned in NCRS - "In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, give the owner the benefit of the doubt."
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VetteZr (03-23-2018)
03-23-2018, 03:21 PM
#42
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VetteZr (03-23-2018)
03-23-2018, 03:31 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
The process (or game if you wish) is actually very simple to understand...
If the car, as displayed on the judging field, and with the options and components included on the car, "APPEAR" typical of factory production (as installed), then no deduction is made.
In order to make a deduction for an item, the judge must be able to point to some specific issue that does not appear to be typical of factory production.
A judge's prior knowledge of that car is not to be used. I know of one case where a person judged a car, and that the judge himself had assisted the owner in restamping an engine for the car. Now, to be fair, the judge that helped with the restamp did not judge that part of the car.
And even if you "know" something is true, you cannot deduct for it unless you can specifically point to it as not typical of factory production.
An example: At one of the Cypress Gardens meets, I was judging 1968-1969 exteriors. A 1968 L-88 convertible was shown with the hardtop installed. This hardtop was black vinyl covered.
Now, this hardtop had marks in the vinyl where the stainless steel clips that were used on 1969 and later hardtops were removed. The top also had a rear window glass dated 1969.
Clearly this was a 1969 hardtop with the stainless tips removed to make it look like a 1968 hardtop.
We could not deduct for the wrong year hardtop. All we could do was deduct for the rear window date code being incorrect (originality) and the damage to the vinyl where the stainless tips had been removed (condition).
We could not point to any other specific details that were atypical of factory production.
It goes back to one of the first lessons I learned in NCRS - "In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, give the owner the benefit of the doubt."
If the car, as displayed on the judging field, and with the options and components included on the car, "APPEAR" typical of factory production (as installed), then no deduction is made.
In order to make a deduction for an item, the judge must be able to point to some specific issue that does not appear to be typical of factory production.
A judge's prior knowledge of that car is not to be used. I know of one case where a person judged a car, and that the judge himself had assisted the owner in restamping an engine for the car. Now, to be fair, the judge that helped with the restamp did not judge that part of the car.
And even if you "know" something is true, you cannot deduct for it unless you can specifically point to it as not typical of factory production.
An example: At one of the Cypress Gardens meets, I was judging 1968-1969 exteriors. A 1968 L-88 convertible was shown with the hardtop installed. This hardtop was black vinyl covered.
Now, this hardtop had marks in the vinyl where the stainless steel clips that were used on 1969 and later hardtops were removed. The top also had a rear window glass dated 1969.
Clearly this was a 1969 hardtop with the stainless tips removed to make it look like a 1968 hardtop.
We could not deduct for the wrong year hardtop. All we could do was deduct for the rear window date code being incorrect (originality) and the damage to the vinyl where the stainless tips had been removed (condition).
We could not point to any other specific details that were atypical of factory production.
It goes back to one of the first lessons I learned in NCRS - "In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, give the owner the benefit of the doubt."
Ed
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VetteZr (03-23-2018)
03-23-2018, 03:34 PM
#44
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i understand the APPEAR typical as factory comment as it makes sense. I also appreciate your comment regarding “playing the game”. What really bothers me about “the game” is I’d prefer to have a 50yr old original part on my car, that likely shows it’s age and thus looses points, then some POS after market part made in China that not only APPEARS typical, looks nicer, because it’s new, then my 50yr old original part.
Ed
old time judges will be more lenient on real original parts with age
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VetteZr (03-23-2018)
03-23-2018, 03:43 PM
#45
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I may have shared this story before, so if I did, just bear with me.
Many years ago there was a very nice 67 400 hp A/C at Bloomington. The car was beautiful, and of course the engine pad was examined very carefully.
It passed with flying colors.
The engine block casting date code preceded the assembly date by a coupe of weeks, which was a bit unusual, but not unheard of. The assembly date was well in line with the vehicle build date.
All was well and good in the land of 1967 400 hp A/C big block Corvettes at Bloomington.
But then what do you image showed up in the swap meet area. A used 327 short block from a 1967 Corvette. I seem to recall that the engine was a 350hp engine, but that really wasn't the point.
The VIN number on this 1967 327 Corvette short block matched the VIN of the car that was on display as a 400 hp A/C car.
The block casting date of the 327 was a day before the assembly date of the engine, and both dates were well in line with the vehicle build date.
So we have a fully restored, all original 427 / 400hp A/C 4 speed 1967 Corvette coupe on the show field...and
we have a 327 short block in the swap meet area...and
both engines have the very same VIN number on them.
I don't know what happened to the car with regard to judging, but I did hear that the owner of the car quickly bought the 327 short block, and it was moved out of sight immediately afterwards.
I also remember someone getting pictures of both engines before the small block disappeared.
The best conjecture we could put together was that the car was an original small block A/C car; the original engine was removed and went down the road, and was replaced with a 454 engine and driven as a hot rod for some time. Something happened to the rear end, and it was replaced with big block components
The car then was sold for a restoration project. The new owner decided to build a reproduction 427 for this "original big block car". He also decided to make it a 400 hp car while was at it.
I think the owner / restorer actually thought that the car was an original big block car, or maybe that was wishful thinking.
That story went around Bloomington the entire weekend, but very few people actually saw the small block before it was bought and hidden away.
Many years ago there was a very nice 67 400 hp A/C at Bloomington. The car was beautiful, and of course the engine pad was examined very carefully.
It passed with flying colors.
The engine block casting date code preceded the assembly date by a coupe of weeks, which was a bit unusual, but not unheard of. The assembly date was well in line with the vehicle build date.
All was well and good in the land of 1967 400 hp A/C big block Corvettes at Bloomington.
But then what do you image showed up in the swap meet area. A used 327 short block from a 1967 Corvette. I seem to recall that the engine was a 350hp engine, but that really wasn't the point.
The VIN number on this 1967 327 Corvette short block matched the VIN of the car that was on display as a 400 hp A/C car.
The block casting date of the 327 was a day before the assembly date of the engine, and both dates were well in line with the vehicle build date.
So we have a fully restored, all original 427 / 400hp A/C 4 speed 1967 Corvette coupe on the show field...and
we have a 327 short block in the swap meet area...and
both engines have the very same VIN number on them.
I don't know what happened to the car with regard to judging, but I did hear that the owner of the car quickly bought the 327 short block, and it was moved out of sight immediately afterwards.
I also remember someone getting pictures of both engines before the small block disappeared.
The best conjecture we could put together was that the car was an original small block A/C car; the original engine was removed and went down the road, and was replaced with a 454 engine and driven as a hot rod for some time. Something happened to the rear end, and it was replaced with big block components
The car then was sold for a restoration project. The new owner decided to build a reproduction 427 for this "original big block car". He also decided to make it a 400 hp car while was at it.
I think the owner / restorer actually thought that the car was an original big block car, or maybe that was wishful thinking.
That story went around Bloomington the entire weekend, but very few people actually saw the small block before it was bought and hidden away.
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VetteZr (03-23-2018)
03-24-2018, 07:44 AM
#47
Melting Slicks
I may have shared this story before, so if I did, just bear with me.
Many years ago there was a very nice 67 400 hp A/C at Bloomington. The car was beautiful, and of course the engine pad was examined very carefully.
It passed with flying colors.
The engine block casting date code preceded the assembly date by a coupe of weeks, which was a bit unusual, but not unheard of. The assembly date was well in line with the vehicle build date.
All was well and good in the land of 1967 400 hp A/C big block Corvettes at Bloomington.
But then what do you image showed up in the swap meet area. A used 327 short block from a 1967 Corvette. I seem to recall that the engine was a 350hp engine, but that really wasn't the point.
The VIN number on this 1967 327 Corvette short block matched the VIN of the car that was on display as a 400 hp A/C car.
The block casting date of the 327 was a day before the assembly date of the engine, and both dates were well in line with the vehicle build date.
So we have a fully restored, all original 427 / 400hp A/C 4 speed 1967 Corvette coupe on the show field...and
we have a 327 short block in the swap meet area...and
both engines have the very same VIN number on them.
I don't know what happened to the car with regard to judging, but I did hear that the owner of the car quickly bought the 327 short block, and it was moved out of sight immediately afterwards.
I also remember someone getting pictures of both engines before the small block disappeared.
The best conjecture we could put together was that the car was an original small block A/C car; the original engine was removed and went down the road, and was replaced with a 454 engine and driven as a hot rod for some time. Something happened to the rear end, and it was replaced with big block components
The car then was sold for a restoration project. The new owner decided to build a reproduction 427 for this "original big block car". He also decided to make it a 400 hp car while was at it.
I think the owner / restorer actually thought that the car was an original big block car, or maybe that was wishful thinking.
That story went around Bloomington the entire weekend, but very few people actually saw the small block before it was bought and hidden away.
Many years ago there was a very nice 67 400 hp A/C at Bloomington. The car was beautiful, and of course the engine pad was examined very carefully.
It passed with flying colors.
The engine block casting date code preceded the assembly date by a coupe of weeks, which was a bit unusual, but not unheard of. The assembly date was well in line with the vehicle build date.
All was well and good in the land of 1967 400 hp A/C big block Corvettes at Bloomington.
But then what do you image showed up in the swap meet area. A used 327 short block from a 1967 Corvette. I seem to recall that the engine was a 350hp engine, but that really wasn't the point.
The VIN number on this 1967 327 Corvette short block matched the VIN of the car that was on display as a 400 hp A/C car.
The block casting date of the 327 was a day before the assembly date of the engine, and both dates were well in line with the vehicle build date.
So we have a fully restored, all original 427 / 400hp A/C 4 speed 1967 Corvette coupe on the show field...and
we have a 327 short block in the swap meet area...and
both engines have the very same VIN number on them.
I don't know what happened to the car with regard to judging, but I did hear that the owner of the car quickly bought the 327 short block, and it was moved out of sight immediately afterwards.
I also remember someone getting pictures of both engines before the small block disappeared.
The best conjecture we could put together was that the car was an original small block A/C car; the original engine was removed and went down the road, and was replaced with a 454 engine and driven as a hot rod for some time. Something happened to the rear end, and it was replaced with big block components
The car then was sold for a restoration project. The new owner decided to build a reproduction 427 for this "original big block car". He also decided to make it a 400 hp car while was at it.
I think the owner / restorer actually thought that the car was an original big block car, or maybe that was wishful thinking.
That story went around Bloomington the entire weekend, but very few people actually saw the small block before it was bought and hidden away.
It seems the owner of the car was ok perpetuating the fraud that he may or may not have known about.
But is it really fraud? Yes because the car increased in value with the big block vs the small. But...the owner can still claim matching numbers because you can see they match. Doesn't mean original motor and that may or may not be claimed in the future like at time of sale. What do you think?
This is why many of us here don't care what the number on the block says unless there is full documentation from day of birth. Everything on the car can be faked. I'm skeptical on every restored car I see at a show, more so on the BB cars. I still enjoy seeing them!
I'm sure that 327 won't see the light of day again. The ultimate sham would be to rebuild the 327 with a clean (decked) pad, restamped and put into another Corvette and claimed as original. Double fake!! Kudos to the guy who figured it out.
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VetteZr (03-24-2018)
03-24-2018, 08:13 PM
#48
Instructor
The Corvette future may be in Resto-mods (See some of the latest auction prices) but the NCRS has turned their back on them. Without some changes the NCRS is on their way out unless they begin to accept non-original cars in another lower judging group. My 66 is very near original but has a Chevy ZZ383 engine. As a result I and my car are "dead" to the NCRS. I have met people at the various car shows that can build me a "number Matching" engine with correct stampings and broche marks and will stand behind their work. These guys make engines that pass NCRS judging every day.
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VetteZr (03-25-2018)
03-24-2018, 08:34 PM
#49
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I agree! That is why I dropped out of NCRS. NCRS has a place as an authority on originality, but they take the fun out of having a fun "non-original" car. The judges pass on excellent faked cars but offer nothing to the vast majority of car owners with "errors" in stampings, casting numbers and options.
The Corvette future may be in Resto-mods (See some of the latest auction prices) but the NCRS has turned their back on them. Without some changes the NCRS is on their way out unless they begin to accept non-original cars in another lower judging group. My 66 is very near original but has a Chevy ZZ383 engine. As a result I and my car are "dead" to the NCRS. I have met people at the various car shows that can build me a "number Matching" engine with correct stampings and broche marks and will stand behind their work. These guys make engines that pass NCRS judging every day.
The Corvette future may be in Resto-mods (See some of the latest auction prices) but the NCRS has turned their back on them. Without some changes the NCRS is on their way out unless they begin to accept non-original cars in another lower judging group. My 66 is very near original but has a Chevy ZZ383 engine. As a result I and my car are "dead" to the NCRS. I have met people at the various car shows that can build me a "number Matching" engine with correct stampings and broche marks and will stand behind their work. These guys make engines that pass NCRS judging every day.
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VetteZr (03-25-2018)
03-24-2018, 09:32 PM
#50
If NCRS accepts repo vin tags, then they will accept anything. I saw a 62 with a repo vin tag on it that won a top flight NCRS award. How did I know it was a repo. You could see glue around the edges of tag where he glued it on. Also the tag was shiny and show no signs of every being spot welded on the column. So I guess it depends on who the judge is.
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VetteZr (03-25-2018)
03-25-2018, 08:33 AM
#52
Team Owner
Another long NCRS debate, resolving nothing....
They have their rules and with a few glaring exceptions they make sense...
In spite of that, judges are human and the interpretation of the rules may vary...
Can that interpretation can be slanted based on a judge's interaction (good or bad) or relationship to an owner, consciously or unconsciously ?
C'mon, wake up.
Its really that simple..
They have their rules and with a few glaring exceptions they make sense...
In spite of that, judges are human and the interpretation of the rules may vary...
Can that interpretation can be slanted based on a judge's interaction (good or bad) or relationship to an owner, consciously or unconsciously ?
C'mon, wake up.
Its really that simple..
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 03-25-2018 at 08:38 AM.
03-26-2018, 12:18 PM
#53
Racer
I am replacing the engine in my 61 with a 69 CE block. The block has been decked, so there’s a fresh pad. I doubt that the car will ever be NCRS judged, and I don’t want to mislead anyone. But I do want the engine pad to match the car in case of theft or whatever. My plans are to stamp the pad as follows, any recommendations?
###### (VIN #) CEF0318CU (CE block, Flint, Month and year replaced, Dual quad)
###### (VIN #) CEF0318CU (CE block, Flint, Month and year replaced, Dual quad)
03-26-2018, 12:22 PM
#54
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I am replacing the engine in my 61 with a 69 CE block. The block has been decked, so there’s a fresh pad. I doubt that the car will ever be NCRS judged, and I don’t want to mislead anyone. But I do want the engine pad to match the car in case of theft or whatever. My plans are to stamp the pad as follows, any recommendations?
###### (VIN #) CEF0318CU (CE block, Flint, Month and year replaced, Dual quad)
###### (VIN #) CEF0318CU (CE block, Flint, Month and year replaced, Dual quad)
03-26-2018, 02:23 PM
#55
Instructor
Why leave it blank? Re-stamp it with the original numbers and letters, get it "Top-Flighted" and then sell it for way more money! Isn't that the "norm" today!! Sure hope I'm wrong!!
03-26-2018, 04:02 PM
#56
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I am replacing the engine in my 61 with a 69 CE block. The block has been decked, so there’s a fresh pad. I doubt that the car will ever be NCRS judged, and I don’t want to mislead anyone. But I do want the engine pad to match the car in case of theft or whatever. My plans are to stamp the pad as follows, any recommendations?
###### (VIN #) CEF0318CU (CE block, Flint, Month and year replaced, Dual quad)
###### (VIN #) CEF0318CU (CE block, Flint, Month and year replaced, Dual quad)
03-26-2018, 04:34 PM
#57
Racer
If NCRS accepts repro
tags, then they will accept anything. I saw a 62 with a repo vin tag on it that won a top flight NCRS award. How did I know it was a repo. You could see glue around the edges of tag where he glued it on. Also the tag was shiny and show no signs of every being spot welded on the column. So I guess it depends on who the judge is.
tags, then they will accept anything. I saw a 62 with a repo vin tag on it that won a top flight NCRS award. How did I know it was a repo. You could see glue around the edges of tag where he glued it on. Also the tag was shiny and show no signs of every being spot welded on the column. So I guess it depends on who the judge is.
Again it states if determined. Not all members are as knowledgable as others in spotting these repro tags and sometimes the owners are not aware that these tags have been changed by some previous owner or restorer. It is the Team Leader or Judging Chairmans job to look at the these tags and sign the sheet indicating that they are OK. Note: This does not apply to state issued vin tags with proper paper work,
Last edited by packrat; 03-26-2018 at 08:22 PM. Reason: spelling
03-26-2018, 04:42 PM
#58
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Any individual, be it owner, owner/restorer, restorer and owner, or restorer, presenting a vehicle for judging that is determined to contain counterfeit identifiers such as Vin plate, trim tag, altered casting numbers, or altered casting dates will be suspended from further participation in judging activities of NCRS and the vehicle will be branded Counterfeit and the Vehicle ID number will be permanently
Why is that?