Powderboy

I agree, but Im not a DIY guy and have had 3 shops quote the same price in Seattle.

wmf62

better stick with R12 then

Bill

emdoller

63 340HP

For that retrofit cost, the economics of purchasing your own R12, and having a shop replace the compressor and original hoses and liquid receiver dryer works in your favor to restore the system to original GM specifications.

Recycled R12 is available commercially in smaller bulk, 30#, cylinders for ~$40/#. The buyer usually needs an EPA 608 (stationary refrigeration) or EPA 609 (automotive refrigeration) Technician Certification to purchase refrigerant, but finding a Certified Technician is fairly easy (call local air conditioning shops or the Pipefitter or Sheet Metal Workers Union offices). Expect a reasonable value added mark up on cost above the commercial price.

Virgin Chinese R12 (Santong, etc.) is on the internet for ~$60/# in 12oz cans.
Virgin Mexican R12 (Dupont) is on the internet for ~$80/# in 12oz cans.

While the US EPA honors the Montreal Protocol phase out of the production of R12 in the westernized world, that was imposed twenty two years ago, Mexico, China, and India were allowed to manufacture R12 on an extended schedule and a large quantity was pre-purchased, imported, and stockpiled for future use and future sales. These countries still produce R12 to supply the exemption classes (Medical use being one). Since accounting and audits are not required to be reported, and there is no enforcement or penalty for abusing the exemptions, the true global production is unknown (except know that Chinese R12 is plentiful in the consumer marketplace, and China still produces and uses R11 as an industrial solvent and R12 for cleaning in electronics manufacturing and PV Solar panel manufacturing).

The EPA has an exemption allowing the import of reclaimed or recycled Class 1 refrigerants, like R12, requiring only an accounting of the imported refrigerant. The result is that a nearly unlimited quantity of "recycled" R12 is available globally. The ability to detect virgin R12 from recycled R12 is non-existent (R12 is R12), so virgin R12 imports from countries abusing the manufacturing exceptions are hard to police.

The retrofit and replacement of R12 refrigeration systems has reduced domestic demand for R12, and the supply has actually grown, so the pricing has been stable for over five years. R12 is inexpensive to manufacture, so the profit going to the countries that still have the infrastructure is high and worth keeping production facilities in operation (we used to buy Dupont R12 in one ton lots for $0.25/# in the 1980's, to provide an idea of the real cost to manufacture R12).

Don't be afraid to restore the system and continue to use R12.

.

GTOguy

With your system sealed up, go with R-12. It should be fine for many more years. 134A is getting phased out as we speak, so that isn't a long term solution. I have converted many vehicles from R12 to R134A, simply by changing out the valves, the dryer, and flushing and then evacuating the system with a vacuum pump. The AC worked fine in all cases....but those valves sure are large and visible. If it were my car, I'd get the 2 or so pounds of R-12 and go that route. Be sure to have the dryer replaced, and be sure to have it evacuated with a vacuum pump for about an hour and then check the gauges about an hour after the pump shuts off. If it's still reading 29+ inches of mercury, you are leak free and good to re-charge. If the vacuum gauge has lost vacuum, you have a leak somewhere in the system, and adding that spendy R 12 will be for naught.

wmf62

what is the source of the info that 134a is being phased out; and what is to replace it?

Bill

Nowhere Man

Starting in 2014 R1234yf is being used

wmf62

this sux…

https://www.moderntiredealer.com/art...-are-you-ready

Bill

dplotkin

I've had the complete opposite experience. Just this evening I was out in my 68 New Yorker, bone stock Airtemp RV2 system using 134A and blowing 38-40 in a heatwave. My 62 Bonneville, stock STV/A6 system blows colder. Its beer cooler cold in that car. My 63 Impala and 63 Galaxie are bone stock and on R12. Neither cools any better.

R134A will run fine on any system that is otherwise in good shape stem to stern, properly evacuated and charged.

Dan

phil2302

"If the refrigerant in the system is less than 98% pure R1234yf, the service machine will not recover it. At this point you will need to connect a recovery-only machine and collect the refrigerant for disposal. Since the refrigerant is flammable, using the proper equipment that meets SAE J2851 standards is important......................."
https://www.moderntiredealer.com/art...-are-you-ready


So we in the good old USA are told no more R12 R22 R134 etc and now have to use a flammable gas instead while the rest of the world continues to use the old inexpensive stuff.
Makes sense.

Vitaminmopar

Nope, Makes CENTS for those higher up on the money chain.

63 340HP

Butane/Propane blends are expensive, and can be a danger to the inexperienced mechanic. The original voluntary appeal of CFC's (R12), and HCFC's (R22), was the lack of toxicity and fire danger in confined spaces. These refrigerants displaced ammonia and butane/propane refrigerant blends in compression refrigeration systems to reduce the danger of common refrigerants. Now, almost a hundred years later we have reverted to a regulated increase in danger.

R134a HFC was found to have an unacceptable global warming potential, greater than the R22 HCFC it replaced in commercial applications, but only after it became the most prolifically used refrigerant. A regulatory mistake, that could not be reversed.

People should read up on HFO-1234yf, or r1234yf, to assess the use and concerns (google wiki for a link with the quote below).
Be careful with it around fire and surfaces subject to corrosion.

It took almost ten years for regulators to realize r134a was a greater danger to the environment than R22 (much like the delay to recognize the MTBE dangers to aquifers). Let's hope this is not another politically driven SNAFU,

Powershift

Think prescription drug costs...............

Larry

66BBCoupe

Thanks all for your comments and advice - based on your input, my research and particular priorities (originality and effeciency / performance) - I will have the system restored as original and run R12.

GTOguy

This has been my experience with all the retrofits I've done over the years. The drawback on a classic is the appearance of the 134 access valves. Cooling has always been just fine.

wmf62

if you have a R12 a/c manifold gauge set you can charge with 134a without the 134a access valves

Bill

emdoller

wmf62

actually, the 134a valves are a lot more convenient to use than the R12s; just push the hose fitting on rather than screwing the hose fitting on.
Bill

emdoller

wmf62

i did get your point, and I do agree. you're not only supposed to use the valve adapters but place a sticker somewhere visible that it has been converted.

someone mentioned that for judging the 134a valves were a dead giveaway, I was simple saying that if the valves were a judging problem, there is a 'workaround'....
Bill