C2CorvetteBob

Would there be a very severe NCRS points deduction for a 66 convertible that has a trim tag for bright blue vinyl and changing the seats (and headrests) to bright blue leather?

mblake101

GTOguy

DON'T DO IT!!! You will never have a good night's sleep again!!!

GearheadJoe

I know this is an old thread but it looks like you didn't get an answer to your question (I'm just now catching up on my CF reading).

I bought a '67 that originally had black vinyl seats, but a prior owner had changed it to black leather. After studying the judging points assigned to the seats, I concluded that my leather seats would lose 16 points (out of a total 4500 for the whole car). I subsequently took the car through NCRS judging all the way up through the National level. The deduction I got was 16 points in the earlier judging, and only 12 later on. The reduction was due to the NCRS changing how they assign partial credit using the "CDCIF" method that was adopted a few years ago.

So, simply changing the seat material from vinyl to leather will cost you (12/4500) = 0.27% out of a possible 100%. An NCRS Top Flight requires a score of at least 94%. In summary, the deduction for leather seats is not a big deal at all.

One thing I can't recall is whether there would be any additional deduction for a color mis-match. In my case, the color was black, so there was no problem with matching the color. If you decide to go with bright blue leather, I suggest that you get the seat covers from a reputable Corvette supplier that has experience with matching the factory blue leather.

Mr D.

Sounds as confusing as Florida vote counting.

GearheadJoe

No, it's far less confusing than Florida vote counting. It has always been true that the "originality" points assigned to the seats were a fixed number. The only thing that has changed is the way points are allocated when a judged item has some aspects that are not original (such as the upholstery) and some things that are original (such as the seat backs, chrome trim, and latches). In the past, if the seats were leather and the trim tag said vinyl, judges would often deduct 50% of the originality points allocated for the entire seat. Under the more restrictive CDCIF guidelines, judges must make the originality deduction based on what percentage of the seat is not original.

The goal of the CDCIF method is to make deductions more uniform from one judging event to the next. So, if you have leather upholstery that should be vinyl, but everything else about the seats looks original, the deduction should be the same regardless of where the judging event was held and regardless of who the judges were. This is a difficult goal to achieve, but the NCRS has gotten a lot better at it over the last ten years. The net effect has been that it's easier now to get a Top Flight award compared to what it was ten years ago.

Another benefit of the CDCIF method for evaluating originality is that owners can figure out in advance what the deduction *should* be, and can question the judges if the deduction seems to be too high. Judges now have less discretion about deductions than they used to have. All of this works in favor of the car owners.

JMG2

fwiw, I switched from vinyl to leather... same color... 60's vinyl doesn't breath, smells, and just is not comfortable. You won't regret the change for the small point deduction.

RatDog

I switched from vinyl to leather and added head rests, also leather, on my ‘67.

I know someone will correct me if I’m wrong but I believe, at least in ‘67, all headrests were vinyl regardless of whether the seats were leather or vinyl.

Steve

GearheadJoe

To follow up on my previous post about NCRS deductions for leather being substituted for vinyl, I pulled out my judging sheets from the 2007 National. The deduction for my leather seats (trim tag says vinyl) was only 8 points, even lower than I had recalled.

The judging sheet allocates a total of 24 originality points for "seats, backs, and trim." Under the CDCIF guidelines, the judges must first allocate the 24 points among the three listed items. Judges have some discretion here if they feel that one of the three elements is more important than the others, but the default rule is that if three things are listed, each one gets one third of the allocated points. That is what my judges did at the National (8 point for the seats, 8 points for the backs, and 8 points for the trim).

So, I got the mandatory full-deduct for the seats having leather instead of vinyl (8 points). However, I got the full 8 points for the seat backs, and the full 8 points for the trim. Perhaps another set of judges would say that the seats are "more important" than the seat backs and the trim. These judges might allocate 12 points to the seats, 6 points to the backs, and 6 points to the trim (this happened on my car at an earlier event). In this case, the mandatory full-deduct would be 12 points.

In summary, the deduction for substituting leather for vinyl will likely be somewhere in the range of 8 to 12 points (out of 4500 for the whole car). Clearly, this is not a big deal.

I say, "enjoy those leather seats!"

68hemi

I can't believe nor should there be this kind of discrepancy in NCRS judging. I don't care if it is regional or national. They have judging classes for the judges but apparently no iron clad standard for them to use for things like the above example. To me this is ridiculous and should be the first order of business for an organization that is supposed to be the "gold standard" for original Corvettes.

cv67

Sounds like work to me...ugh. Enjoy that leather man!

65vette396

i have an original headrest car and they are vinyl even though the seats are leather. You are correct.

GearheadJoe

When I first started having my car judged around 2004, the NCRS was very concerned about how the same car could score somewhat differently at different events or with different judges. As an owner, I experienced this myself the first few times my car was judged. The NCRS efforts to fix this problem resulted in the "CDCIF" method for allocating originality points. You are correct that the NCRS has judging classes, and big focus of those classes is on the CDCIF method and how to apply it.

I have attended over a dozen of these classes, and as an NCRS judge, I have had a lot of practice trying to apply the judging rules the correct way. I can tell you that as a judge, the CDCIF method is a bit tedious to apply (I did not even describe the hardest parts of CDCIF in my earlier remarks). However, as an owner, I'm really glad that this method is being used. The end result is a much higher degree of consistency from one event to the next, and from one judging team to the next. And, overall, I think it is easier today to get an NCRS Top Flight than it was 15 years ago.

Another benefit for the owner is that if the originality deduction seems too high, the owner can simply ask the judges, "How did you arrive at this deduction using the CDCIF method?" If the owner feels that the judge made an error and the judge does not agree, the owner can appeal to the Judging Team Leader for a review.

There is now a lot more transparency and accountability than there was 15 years ago, and the variations from one event to the next (especially between Regional and National events) are typically quite small. Chapter events sometimes have wide variations, but the reason is that many of the judges at chapter events are "judges in training."

Regarding the specific case of leather seats, I don't think you can extrapolate the potential variation on this one 24 point element and assume that a similar variation occurs on all of the other 4,476 points allocated elsewhere on the car. My experience with recent judging events is that the deductions are much more consistent now than they were 15 years ago.