[C1] Second new clutch kit and still have chatter
09-10-2018, 10:44 AM
#81
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Did you replace the trans mount? Just had a similar situation on a 383 Mopar, chatter when letting out clutch even worse in reverse. Went through all the scenarios as you have done to no avail.
Rear mount looked good, easiest and cheapest part to change, only piece not replaced so what the heck, problem solved with new mount.
Rear mount looked good, easiest and cheapest part to change, only piece not replaced so what the heck, problem solved with new mount.
09-10-2018, 10:52 AM
#82
Team Owner
Well if you would have read everything you would know that everything that you mentioned was checked . A machinist friend was here Saturday and did every check there is and was mentioned here and it is within factory specs . And the rear end was mentioned because all that is left is the tranny and the rear end , but a driveline specialist that I talked to said it wasn't the rear end so we are done with that . The only thing left is something binding in the tranny unless you know something else I would appreciate hearing that .
You should sell it!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 09-10-2018 at 10:55 AM.
09-10-2018, 11:57 AM
#83
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
09-10-2018, 12:01 PM
#84
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
No not at all , sorry if it sounded that way . Sometimes when you write something rather than speaking direct it can be heard that way .Accept my apologies if that is the way you heard it . I do appreciate your comments .
09-10-2018, 12:07 PM
#85
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I would ask your mechanic friend to pull the side plate on the transmission and see what the guts look like. May not be able to tell a problem visually immediately but by turning the gears by the input and watching things, if there is a transmission issue it should be apparent. Not sure what kind of tranny problem would cause drive line shuddering - growling, rattling, clunking, whine - yes. Maybe others know as I've occasionally seen posts of transmission causing vibration issues.
09-10-2018, 12:37 PM
#86
Burning Brakes
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My 59 Chevy had the old Borg T10 and I was rebuilding them at the time because the gears were not as wide as the Munci and would not hold up to the 348 and 409.
Here is what I found on a few.
Where the main shaft fits into the out put shaft. There is a roller bearing that the gear pack fits into. I found that the roller bearings ate into the main shaft and caused the gears on the main shaft to get to far apart causing gear wear and other problems. That was a check that could be made with the side cover off. In your case, when it pops out of gear when you let off the power , it's time. Another thing is that when you grind a gear while shifting it's not the teeth on the gear, with exception of reverse. it's the syncro on the gear against the syncro clutch ring. The brass part of the syncro clutch only slows the gear down and helps guide the ring on the gear. I loved the T10 untill I took a munci apart when they first came out. I agree with the post that says it's time to do something if it pops out of gear. You can bet that you will be a expert on this when all is done and fixed. I think about all that could be covered was said.
Dom
Here is what I found on a few.
Where the main shaft fits into the out put shaft. There is a roller bearing that the gear pack fits into. I found that the roller bearings ate into the main shaft and caused the gears on the main shaft to get to far apart causing gear wear and other problems. That was a check that could be made with the side cover off. In your case, when it pops out of gear when you let off the power , it's time. Another thing is that when you grind a gear while shifting it's not the teeth on the gear, with exception of reverse. it's the syncro on the gear against the syncro clutch ring. The brass part of the syncro clutch only slows the gear down and helps guide the ring on the gear. I loved the T10 untill I took a munci apart when they first came out. I agree with the post that says it's time to do something if it pops out of gear. You can bet that you will be a expert on this when all is done and fixed. I think about all that could be covered was said.
Dom
09-10-2018, 01:18 PM
#87
Safety Car
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2021 C1 of the Year Finalist - Modified
I myself would put a Muncie or a Super T-10 in it. I was going to offer to go through your tranny, but I've not worked on the early t-10. Rebuilt many Muncies and a few Supers though. Canfield swap meet is this weekend you might want to go look around. I will be going Sat.
09-10-2018, 03:49 PM
#88
Le Mans Master
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I myself would put a Muncie or a Super T-10 in it. I was going to offer to go through your tranny, but I've not worked on the early t-10. Rebuilt many Muncies and a few Supers though. Canfield swap meet is this weekend you might want to go look around. I will be going Sat.
09-10-2018, 05:02 PM
#89
Racer
Still giving your problem some thought. To confirm your problem... It only shudders during clutch engagement and otherwise drives fine. Except it sometimes pops out of second gear, which may be shifter related.
Does it feel the same in reverse as it does in first?
Any chance it’s the exhaust hitting the frame?
I’m assuming you have, but did you check the U joints? I’ve owned a number of raised 4WD trucks that the U joints start to shudder when the grease dries up. They still feel OK when you twist them. But when you pull the caps, it’s obvious they are gonna fail soon. Very distincted sound too, sounds like a creak.
Does it feel the same in reverse as it does in first?
Any chance it’s the exhaust hitting the frame?
I’m assuming you have, but did you check the U joints? I’ve owned a number of raised 4WD trucks that the U joints start to shudder when the grease dries up. They still feel OK when you twist them. But when you pull the caps, it’s obvious they are gonna fail soon. Very distincted sound too, sounds like a creak.
Last edited by Drothgeb; 09-10-2018 at 05:08 PM.
09-10-2018, 05:09 PM
#90
Team Owner
Is this darn thing actually locking up, any gear engagement issues, how is the pedal when not running! Have you left the car running in neutral, and engaged the clutch in and out? Any changes to the engine?
Most clutches are spun balanced, I usually balance mine on the flywheel also!
I an suspect about these modern clutch disk materials! Any odd pattern showing on the surface of that? Any marks on the flywheel, from something on the clutch disc not being right? Any loose materials on the disc? Are the discs the same width on all material surfaces? Any nose play on the input shaft of the tranny?
Sorry, pulling out all things I can think of, as all of the most obvious have been said or covered! Reaching deep into the recesses of my car knowledge for you!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 09-10-2018 at 05:10 PM.
09-10-2018, 07:42 PM
#91
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I myself would put a Muncie or a Super T-10 in it. I was going to offer to go through your tranny, but I've not worked on the early t-10. Rebuilt many Muncies and a few Supers though. Canfield swap meet is this weekend you might want to go look around. I will be going Sat.
09-10-2018, 07:59 PM
#92
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I have limited breaks, to thoroughly read longer posts and threads, so tend to skim read or speed read! Sorry back, my apology too!
Is this darn thing actually locking up, any gear engagement issues, how is the pedal when not running! Have you left the car running in neutral, and engaged the clutch in and out? Any changes to the engine?
Most clutches are spun balanced, I usually balance mine on the flywheel also!
I an suspect about these modern clutch disk materials! Any odd pattern showing on the surface of that? Any marks on the flywheel, from something on the clutch disc not being right? Any loose materials on the disc? Are the discs the same width on all material surfaces? Any nose play on the input shaft of the tranny?
Sorry, pulling out all things I can think of, as all of the most obvious have been said or covered! Reaching deep into the recesses of my car knowledge for you!
09-10-2018, 08:10 PM
#93
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Still giving your problem some thought. To confirm your problem... It only shudders during clutch engagement and otherwise drives fine. Except it sometimes pops out of second gear, which may be shifter related.
Does it feel the same in reverse as it does in first?
Any chance it’s the exhaust hitting the frame?
I’m assuming you have, but did you check the U joints? I’ve owned a number of raised 4WD trucks that the U joints start to shudder when the grease dries up. They still feel OK when you twist them. But when you pull the caps, it’s obvious they are gonna fail soon. Very distincted sound too, sounds like a creak.
Does it feel the same in reverse as it does in first?
Any chance it’s the exhaust hitting the frame?
I’m assuming you have, but did you check the U joints? I’ve owned a number of raised 4WD trucks that the U joints start to shudder when the grease dries up. They still feel OK when you twist them. But when you pull the caps, it’s obvious they are gonna fail soon. Very distincted sound too, sounds like a creak.
09-10-2018, 08:14 PM
#94
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
My 59 Chevy had the old Borg T10 and I was rebuilding them at the time because the gears were not as wide as the Munci and would not hold up to the 348 and 409.
Here is what I found on a few.
Where the main shaft fits into the out put shaft. There is a roller bearing that the gear pack fits into. I found that the roller bearings ate into the main shaft and caused the gears on the main shaft to get to far apart causing gear wear and other problems. That was a check that could be made with the side cover off. In your case, when it pops out of gear when you let off the power , it's time. Another thing is that when you grind a gear while shifting it's not the teeth on the gear, with exception of reverse. it's the syncro on the gear against the syncro clutch ring. The brass part of the syncro clutch only slows the gear down and helps guide the ring on the gear. I loved the T10 untill I took a munci apart when they first came out. I agree with the post that says it's time to do something if it pops out of gear. You can bet that you will be a expert on this when all is done and fixed. I think about all that could be covered was said.
Dom
Here is what I found on a few.
Where the main shaft fits into the out put shaft. There is a roller bearing that the gear pack fits into. I found that the roller bearings ate into the main shaft and caused the gears on the main shaft to get to far apart causing gear wear and other problems. That was a check that could be made with the side cover off. In your case, when it pops out of gear when you let off the power , it's time. Another thing is that when you grind a gear while shifting it's not the teeth on the gear, with exception of reverse. it's the syncro on the gear against the syncro clutch ring. The brass part of the syncro clutch only slows the gear down and helps guide the ring on the gear. I loved the T10 untill I took a munci apart when they first came out. I agree with the post that says it's time to do something if it pops out of gear. You can bet that you will be a expert on this when all is done and fixed. I think about all that could be covered was said.
Dom
09-10-2018, 08:24 PM
#95
Racer
As a former Corvette tech in dealerships, I solved the clutch chatter problem many times by checking the valve guides for excessive clearance, then having bronze valve guides installed along with a valve reface. Chevy delivered many engines brand new with excessive valve guide clearance. Use a vacuum gage with a long hose to read the gage from inside the car. Try to take off as gently as possible and watch the gage for fluctuating vacuum readings from 4-13 inches of manifold vacuum just off of idle. Under this driving condition manifold vacuum should NEVER go below about 15 inches at the worst. If it idles between 21-24 inches it will produce good power above 1200 rpms but still shake the car at lower rpms. Factory clearance specs are .00078 inches to .0015 inches for intake valve guides, a little more for exhaust guides, the bad heads will have way more clearance than is allowed for worn guides. Use a dial indicator with a magnetic base to check for excessive side movement at the spring retainer. A big screw driver prying gently on the spring retainer will show the amount of movement you have.
An engine with excessive valve stem clearance will not be noticed if the car is an automatic, but the clutch equipped cars will chatter no matter how many times the clutch is changed out..
An engine with excessive valve stem clearance will not be noticed if the car is an automatic, but the clutch equipped cars will chatter no matter how many times the clutch is changed out..
09-11-2018, 03:30 PM
#96
Team Owner
As a former Corvette tech in dealerships, I solved the clutch chatter problem many times by checking the valve guides for excessive clearance, then having bronze valve guides installed along with a valve reface. Chevy delivered many engines brand new with excessive valve guide clearance. Use a vacuum gage with a long hose to read the gage from inside the car. Try to take off as gently as possible and watch the gage for fluctuating vacuum readings from 4-13 inches of manifold vacuum just off of idle. Under this driving condition manifold vacuum should NEVER go below about 15 inches at the worst. If it idles between 21-24 inches it will produce good power above 1200 rpms but still shake the car at lower rpms. Factory clearance specs are .00078 inches to .0015 inches for intake valve guides, a little more for exhaust guides, the bad heads will have way more clearance than is allowed for worn guides. Use a dial indicator with a magnetic base to check for excessive side movement at the spring retainer. A big screw driver prying gently on the spring retainer will show the amount of movement you have.
An engine with excessive valve stem clearance will not be noticed if the car is an automatic, but the clutch equipped cars will chatter no matter how many times the clutch is changed out..
An engine with excessive valve stem clearance will not be noticed if the car is an automatic, but the clutch equipped cars will chatter no matter how many times the clutch is changed out..
And for the OP! Also on your last post, I wonder if the disc is sized right for the pressure plate! Almost sounds like it is flexing, like concave or convex (I get those mixed up)! I would think their tech Department would want to see pictures of that burning or hazing on just part of the flywheel!
Our Family was given the very first Experimental Centerforce Dual friction clutch to street/strip test! They even made us Centerline windshield tints. The early one was an actual 956/962 Porsche Pressure plate. We were running 40 pound steel flywheel! Some conversations we had was pertaining to lightened flywheels and not having rigidity to consistently keep a solid platform and also talked about Nodular Iron units too! I am just going totally out on a limb here, as this isn’t getting solved. I think I saw where you were running a heavier flywheel.
Question, I assume this condition is when cold, as well as warm or hot! If the same condition exists threw out the temperature range of operation, then I don’t suspect the lining material! I have even see weird stuff like with IMSA racers, where the lining rivets we’re expanding, causing a hot loose condition! Some of them used I guess Space Shuttle adhesives to bond the linings, as well as with the mechanical fastening!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 09-11-2018 at 03:52 PM.
09-11-2018, 03:53 PM
#98
Team Owner
And occasionally I cause it to flip over with soup in it, and test gravity, as well as the gravity of the situation! Last edited by TCracingCA; 09-11-2018 at 03:55 PM.
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09-11-2018, 09:36 PM
#99
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09-11-2018, 10:06 PM
#100
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Today I made a tool to turn the engine over slowly by hand with the magnetic dial indicator mounted solid to the block and I think I can finally eliminate the crank end as a problem because the dial didn't move at all through one full turn . When we checked the flywheel for runout Saturday we had a hard time getting an accurate reading using the starter to turn it because of vibration . It seemed ok because the needle didn't move but we couldn't get a solid mounting so today I found a way to get the magnet to hold solid and repeated the test . This time it showed the flywheel to be high on the side where the burn marks were and there was some radical movement on the dial indicator . So I hunted up my old flywheel out of the junk pile and installed it to do the same test and it had no movement on the dial , so hopefully it is after all the new RAM flywheel that is defective. I already emailed Summit , waiting to hear what they say .