dplotkin

Was that directed at me? Who mentioned hole shots?
I showed the picture to demonstrate that even with long runners, this motor will fire once there is fuel in the bowls and without chokes or heat it is not hard to keep running for the 30 or less seconds it takes for the intakes to be warm enough for a no drama pull away. But pumping and waiting for everything to "coalesce" is important for a smooth start process...one in which bystanders are impressed rather than giggling.


Dan

Frankie the Fink

dplotkin

Further comments needed? Here? This joint wouldn't be what it is without "further comments."

I knew a guy once who liked to mat a stone cold motor, said he read an engine is better off warming up as fast as possible. I tried reasoning with him but some dopes need to remain that way.

Dan

MikeM

No need to get excited. Wasn't directed at anyone. Just a comment based on another comment.

And yeah, some are dopes enough to do just that. Especially with today's FI cars that will take right off without hesitation.

When you throw a pebble in the water, it's tough for it not to ripple the surface.

I am surprised those long rams aren't very cold natured without a choke to keep them running. Not starting, just running. I was thinking a road test or two back about 1959-1960 reported they were a little cold natured.

RatDog

dplotkin

They are as you put it, cold natured. Here's the thing about them, the two top engine options for 60 and 61 Dodge & Plymouth was a 361 or 383 with these rams. (Actually in 61 only the 383 was available with rams but AMA listed the 413 too). So a guy wanting to tow puts one of these in his station wagon and finds every deep cold start an exercise in trauma and frustration. I've run into a few old Mopar mechanics who told me how many they removed and the sound they made hitting the bottom of the trash can. I think the typical station wagon owner of the day, especially if he let it fall out of tune, wouldn't put up with the nonsense. The guys with 300 F's or G's tolerated it given the exhilarating performance, but workaday cars with rams were not for everyone.

In 11 years I've never tried to start it below 55 degrees, never had a call to, but I imagine it would be fine as long as I'm not trying to rob a bank. As Frankee said, you have to know how to "feather" it until she will hold an idle & go into reverse without stalling.

Dan

63 340HP

Yes, you make an excellent point that is not SOP with vehicles manufactured during the past thirty-odd years.

Many drivers are completely unaware of the need of warmup at a mildly elevated rpm with older performance engines to warm & seat the rings and expand the more loosely fit forged pistons, to prevent washing gasoline past the cold rings on start up, because new cars are EPA regulated and designed to quickly return to a slow idle for emissions control. The other high idle need in older performance engines is flat tappet and cam lobe oiling, a concern that is resolved with modern roller lifters. Every start up after storage is a new break in start, one that is not as critical to be prolonged in duration as cam break in with a new engine, but more critical with high valve spring forces and the looser clearances than what is typical of modern cars with computer controlled engine management.

Vintage flat tappet engines benefit from a quick start and a mildly elevated idle, 1200 to 1600 rpm, on a cold start up, for the same reasons the practice is required for a new engine break in. Slow cranking of a cold engine, even the practice to build oil pressure, is not advised, when a quick start and mild elevated idle will quickly deliver oil pressure, heat the expansion of critical component metals to quickly build compression, and quickly promote sliding friction on lifter faces. The higher velocity of gasses in and out of the engine also improves fuel mixing and removal of exhaust condensation for cleaner operation and less corrosion. The only caution regarding an elevated idle on start up is to move the vehicle to a well ventilated location because the emissions have considerably more CO than modern a engine's exhaust (roll it outside the garage after the quick start up).

Swept57

That was probably my dad, he never changed the oil in his car. But he had a two-year lease on company cars, so for him, it was a waste of time and money.

63 340HP

I had a friend who's older brother installed a set of the long rams on a 413 Fury with headers and 4.56 gears with an automatic. The odd thing was manifold icing sometimes during freeway runs at sustained high rpm, and the resulting melt puddle immediately after parking. It was quite a ride and a deceiving image, one that humbled many challengers in smaller modified cars, with large rear inner fender wells for hiding wide rubber and the practiced left handed push button launch sequence (apparently hard things to notice at the stop light drags). He kept a can of either under the seat for dead cold start ups.

toddalin

I don't know where you guys are getting this 30 - 60 seconds and good to go.

I have no choke, the heat riser is blocked, and there is a 1/2" carb spacer. It takes my engine several minutes before I can reliably get under way and my oil won't hit 150 degrees in the first 1/2 - 1 mile of starting.

I live on a hill and exit uphill. But I first run the car down the hill through the cul-de-sac to warm up and avoid any stalling going up the hill.

63 340HP

Where do you read "good to go," without caution and respect for a proper engine & oil warm up before excessive load or rpm (per your example and practice)?

tbarb

Maybe you guys should consider putting a choke on the carburetor, it's purpose is to eliminate exactly what you are talking about.

toddalin

I guess that we tolerate the inconvenience for the additional power, throttle response, and cool factor that it brings.

dplotkin

I'll play.

As MikeM has pointed out a choke won't help with light-off, its purpose is to allow enough fuel in a cold induction system to stay in suspension (while the majority of it condenses into liquid some of which ends up in the crankcase as we know) to allow sustained running. But chokes can stick, bind, wash down cylinder walls and contaminate oil. The electric ones are aesthetically inconvenient. I realize I'm making a whole lot out of nothing and that a properly operating choke is as useful as a soap dish in the shower, maybe more so. I have them on all but 2 cars.

But I don't have a problem letting that chokeless 413 rumble under my feet a little bit before putting her in gear. As for starting cars, I have two rules, nothing is ever started without being brought to operating temperature before stopping, and nothing but gentle, moderate speed driving until engine reaches operating temperature. I've kept 8 engines happy over 20 years.

Dan

tbarb

Dan,

I am not trying to argue with you, that car you posted a picture of is beautiful. That being said a properly adjusted choke circuit is a very important thing for a street driven car.

I agree that pumping liquid fuel into the engine without a choke will lite it off but the purpose of the choke is to simply allow the A/F mixture to be richer during warm up. Most of us here know the cadence of how to feather the gas pedal with a cold engine. The newer generation, forget it..

Desert Nomad

Just curious, has anybody tried gaging oil temp on a C2? Not that its really necessary. Where would you put the oil temp sender other then drilling a hole in the oil pan.

MikeM

The reason the subject of the choke came up is because the OP couldn't get his car to start without excesive cranking of the starter. Then he seemed to imply a sticking choke might be his problem with starting the engine. Then he found out different.

I don't think anyone would argue with your point of the choke enriching the fuel mixture. Just that it's irrelevant to getting the OP's engine started in these circumstances .

dplotkin

I understand...
I certainly was not advocating for abandonment of chokes. My point was more to reiterate what MikeM has said - chokes don't get a car started so much as to allow it to keep running until the intake is warm enough to keep the engine from stalling on lean mixtures. I have the choke disabled on my 63 Impala because of a rotted manifold choke tube and never fixed it because it starts and runs fine without it. I didn't use them on the dual quad ram inducted Plymouth as I didn't want manual choke cables under the hood. That car needs more patience after it starts but certainly doesn't need a choke.

Dan

Frankie the Fink

Not sure what the whole discussion is about....plenty of things were done to make life easier for the drivers of grocery getter cars at every level of experience back in the day. Chokes, one-size-fits-all advance curves, fast idles, etc..

I think we forget our Moms, sisters and decrepit uncles drove these cars everyday and a whole lot of 'em could care less about the mechanicals and air/fuel mixtures. Turn the key and go is what they want and expect..

Many here understand what's going on under the hood and can compensate for things until stability is reached...not the case with everybody.

MikeM

In days gone by, if you didn't know what was going on, you didn't go anywhere. Simple.

It's a lost art. My parents, grandparents and others had a spark advance lever on the left side of the steering wheel, a hand throttle on the right side, a choke rod on the right side under dash you had to pull out or the cold engine wouldn't start, and after you got the engine running, you rotated the **** to get the best fuel mixture to run the engine on. Did I mention the hand crank if the battery was too low to start the engine?

I started out on similar equipment as I'm sure many here did. Didn't think anything about it.