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Red 340HP SWC with NCRS Score 96

Old 09-19-2018, 11:34 PM
  #1  
eric lipper
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Default Red 340HP SWC with NCRS Score 96

In my "Frankie the Fink" regular survey of the internet I located a car at An American Classic in Wisconsin that is Red/Black and was NCRS judged in 2016 and got a 96.2 score. It is owned by Al Wagner, and has been since the early 1990's, and some of you may know him because he is a Corvette guy and active in the Wisconsin NCRS chapter. His price is high on the car but I think we could reach a deal because we talked in round numbers a little earlier today. Anyone know anything about the car? Anyone actually seen it? The fit of the driver's door looks poor but that may be within what a real car would do. I guess that is something that would have impacted its judging?

The car has some unusual history because Al was a friend of Larry Shinoda so he had Larry sign the underside of the hood in 1997 before he died. He has a picture of Larry sitting in the car. Not sure what effect that may have on value but it is cool. My Shelby's are all signed by Shelby but then he signed everything in exchange for a donation so his signature really does nothing except look cool. I have not seen it but I have talked with Al several times and he seems very honest. There is also something cool that the car was originally from Houston so I would, in a sense, be returning back to its original place of sale.

FYI, I am passing on the 63 fuelie that I posted about earlier (which Al is representing but does not own) because it is a reproduction trim tag that does not correlate with the vin and the vin looks like it might not be original to the car. Although the car looks pretty in the pictures I was able to discern enough from my internet work to know that I should run away. Al was genuinely surprised about the issues with the Vin tag on the fuelie but when we talked about it in more detail he clearly acknowledged the issue -- there is no hard sale with him.

So back to the point. If you know anything about Al Wagner's 63 340HP car let me know. Here are some pictures.





















Last edited by eric lipper; 09-19-2018 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:38 AM
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Default 1963 Corvette

I don't know the car however, I do know Al. His cars are typically very high end and his descriptions are accurate to the last detail. Good luck in your search.
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Old 09-20-2018, 06:34 AM
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An NCRS score means nothing 10 minutes after the car leaves the judging field...especially once it gets in some dealer's hands.

Celebrity signatures mean nothing (to me at least) Carrol Shelby would sign anything that walked, talked or crawled...

Shinoda signed a lot of things too, like Boss 302s and sat in many I'm sure. Chip Foose once leaned on my 61 at a Disney show....I never washed that spot again...

Original cars had fitment idiosyncrasies to be sure...many coupes have excessive gap at the top of the passenger door where it meets the fender. My coupe had a good 1/8" of the door sticking above the roof at the very front - door is original to the car with the same job number in crayon. So, it is what it is....

Looks to be a nice car ...but seems you haven't taken the hint about pics of VIN tags, trim tags, frame, birdcage and the IMPORTANT stuff. A Shinoda (genius that he was) butt print in the seat doesn't trump a rusted birdcage IMO..

Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 09-20-2018 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 09-20-2018, 06:51 AM
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I don't know anything about the car. Looks pretty. But yeah, that door fitment would make me crazy. I'd want it adjusted before writing a fat check.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:24 AM
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[QUOTE=Looks to be a nice car ...but seems you haven't taken the hint about pics of VIN tags, trim tags, frame, birdcage and the IMPORTANT stuff. A Shinoda (genius that he was) butt print in the seat doesn't trump a rusted birdcage IMO..[/QUOTE]

FTF, not sure on what basis you say that other than not understanding my posts. Every car that I am looking at is internet checked by me and, to date, it looks like I am batting 100% on discovering the fakes so I am pretty proud of my personal detective work. With that said any car that I buy at my "big balance sheet" price will be ultimately viewed by a expert before the money passes since that is just another rounding error on my balance sheet . Although you seem to regularly hint that I just fell off the turnip truck when it comes to C2's I have been seriously in the search for a SWC for about a year. I have looked at 6 cars personally and bought exactly zero of them and in that endeavor I have seen plenty of rusty bird cages, fake tags, Frankenstein cars, etc. Al Wagner (he is not just the dealer but has owned this car personally since the 1990's) has not yet sent me pics of the tags but on this car I am not too worried about that because, on this particular car I did see the judging sheet which verified the important numbers (and it was in 2016 which was 20 years after it was restored) so I doubt much has changed in the last couple of years. As soon as I get the pics from Al I will post them up here so that everyone can give me their .02 and tell me about how this car. This is why I really want to know facts like who has actually seen this car? It has been judged so someone knows about it.
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:13 AM
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I put exactly ZERO stock into "NCRS Judging Sheets"......I once looked at a C3 that came with a wonderful NCRS judging sheet, the judge's certificate too. It was owned by the judge himself when the car was "judged". Turns out he just filled in the numbers as he saw fit. The car bore very little resemblance to the info on the judging sheet. When I reviewed it with the seller representing the car, suddenly the price of the "97 point car" became extremely negotiable. I walked. What I learned: NCRS documents are not to be taken without a huge grain of salt. Your mileage may vary.....
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Chapter2 View Post
I put exactly ZERO stock into "NCRS Judging Sheets"......I once looked at a C3 that came with a wonderful NCRS judging sheet, the judge's certificate too. It was owned by the judge himself when the car was "judged". Turns out he just filled in the numbers as he saw fit. The car bore very little resemblance to the info on the judging sheet. When I reviewed it with the seller representing the car, suddenly the price of the "97 point car" became extremely negotiable. I walked. What I learned: NCRS documents are not to be taken without a huge grain of salt. Your mileage may vary.....
Thanks. I get it.

Last edited by eric lipper; 09-20-2018 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:32 AM
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You have to scrutinize a NCRS sheet/score just as you would a VIN or Trim tag. Some are legit, some are not.
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Old 09-20-2018, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Chapter2 View Post
I put exactly ZERO stock into "NCRS Judging Sheets"......I once looked at a C3 that came with a wonderful NCRS judging sheet, the judge's certificate too. It was owned by the judge himself when the car was "judged". Turns out he just filled in the numbers as he saw fit. The car bore very little resemblance to the info on the judging sheet. When I reviewed it with the seller representing the car, suddenly the price of the "97 point car" became extremely negotiable. I walked. What I learned: NCRS documents are not to be taken without a huge grain of salt. Your mileage may vary.....
I think this is a bit harsh. When I was looking for my 67, all the NCRS judged cars I looked at were not only true to thier judging sheets, they were top notch cars. Iím not saying there arenít fakes or cases where judges go wild, Iím saying that generally speaking Iíd buy a high grade NCRS car and feel comfortable AFTER I validated there wasnít anything suspicious.
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Old 09-20-2018, 09:15 AM
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Most high scored NCRS cars that where owned and restored by a judge got a high score with the rent a point/parts program in other words there are a bunch of friends who onwn ginger bread items that get passed from one car to the next. After judging the repro parts go in its place. I AM NOT saying it’s the case here. But look over it closely
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:15 AM
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That car has been advertised in Hemmings for a long time. Looks like a lot of corrosion pushing through the paint in the B-pillar areas.....
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:47 AM
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[QUOTE=eric lipper;1598016076]In my "Frankie the Fink" regular survey of the internet I located a car at An American Classic in Wisconsin that is Red/Black and was NCRS judged in 2016 and got a 96.2 score. It is owned by Al Wagner, and has been since the early 1990's, and some of you may know him because he is a Corvette guy and active in the Wisconsin NCRS chapter. His price is high on the car but I think we could reach a deal because we talked in round numbers a little earlier today. Anyone know anything about the car? Anyone actually seen it? The fit of the driver's door looks poor but that may be within what a real car would do. I guess that is something that would have impacted its judging?

The car has some unusual history because Al was a friend of Larry Shinoda so he had Larry sign the underside of the hood in 1997 before he died. He has a picture of Larry sitting in the car. Not sure what effect that may have on value but it is cool. My Shelby's are all signed by Shelby but then he signed everything in exchange for a donation so his signature really does nothing except look cool. I have not seen it but I have talked with Al several times and he seems very honest. There is also something cool that the car was originally from Houston so I would, in a sense, be returning back to its original place of sale.

FYI, I am passing on the 63 fuelie that I posted about earlier (which Al is representing but does not own) because it is a reproduction trim tag that does not correlate with the vin and the vin looks like it might not be original to the car. Although the car looks pretty in the pictures I was able to discern enough from my internet work to know that I should run away. Al was genuinely surprised about the issues with the Vin tag on the fuelie but when we talked about it in more detail he clearly acknowledged the issue -- there is no hard sale with him.

So back to the point. If you know anything about Al Wagner's 63 340HP car let me know. Here are some pictures.


Makes no sense that a Corvette expert (dont know him never heard of him) would be repping a car and then be all surprised when it turns out it has a repro tag and a suspect vin.
Just sayin...............
Me? after that faux pas he loses all cred and Im done with him.
NCRS docs? hahahahaha
PS Larry Shinoda was an amazing guy and an icon.

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Old 09-20-2018, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Chapter2 View Post
I put exactly ZERO stock into "NCRS Judging Sheets"......I once looked at a C3 that came with a wonderful NCRS judging sheet, the judge's certificate too. It was owned by the judge himself when the car was "judged". Turns out he just filled in the numbers as he saw fit. The car bore very little resemblance to the info on the judging sheet. When I reviewed it with the seller representing the car, suddenly the price of the "97 point car" became extremely negotiable. I walked. What I learned: NCRS documents are not to be taken without a huge grain of salt. Your mileage may vary.....


Sounds like you are saying basically NCRS points don't hold much value or legitimacy. Buyer beware!!!! There are forgeries both in the local antique store and the antique car market. At least with a Resto-Mod you know what you are getting. NCRS points or not.....The price of a car is worth what the buyer is willing to pay.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:39 AM
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CorvetteMikeB View Post
Sounds like you are saying basically NCRS points don't hold much value or legitimacy. Buyer beware!!!! There are forgeries both in the local antique store and the antique car market. At least with a Resto-Mod you know what you are getting. NCRS points or not.....The price of a car is worth what the buyer is willing to pay.
What I'm saying is, the statement that the car was "NCRS judged to XXXX points".....means as little to me as "numbers matching". Assume nothing, verify everything.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Nowhere Man View Post
Most high scored NCRS cars that where owned and restored by a judge got a high score with the rent a point/parts program in other words there are a bunch of friends who onwn ginger bread items that get passed from one car to the next. After judging the repro parts go in its place. I AM NOT saying itís the case here. But look over it closely
I had bought a set of hubcaps for a 63 that came off a Bloomington car.....it does happen!
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Old 09-22-2018, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Frankie the Fink View Post
An NCRS score means nothing 10 minutes after the car leaves the judging field...especially once it gets in some dealer's hands.

Celebrity signatures mean nothing (to me at least) Carrol Shelby would sign anything that walked, talked or crawled...

Shinoda signed a lot of things too, like Boss 302s and sat in many I'm sure. Chip Foose once leaned on my 61 at a Disney show....I never washed that spot again...

Original cars had fitment idiosyncrasies to be sure...many coupes have excessive gap at the top of the passenger door where it meets the fender. My coupe had a good 1/8" of the door sticking above the roof at the very front - door is original to the car with the same job number in crayon. So, it is what it is....

Looks to be a nice car ...but seems you haven't taken the hint about pics of VIN tags, trim tags, frame, birdcage and the IMPORTANT stuff. A Shinoda (genius that he was) butt print in the seat doesn't trump a rusted birdcage IMO..
And he would charge you as much as he could get away with, as well. There have to be more CS signatures on earth than there are people.....

Last edited by Dan Hampton; 09-22-2018 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 09-22-2018, 02:17 PM
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What fuel car are you talking about that has a fake vin tag.
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:58 PM
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There is so much BS flying in this thread it is hard to fathom it all. Cars speak for themselves.
Have the car inspected and then pay what it's worth to you, or else don't and keep looking.
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