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Does anybody have a good source for the gauge to measure steering wheel force as shown in C1/C2 shop manuals ??
The one used for adjusting the lash ...
I have 0-1 lb "fish" scale that reads out in fractions of ounces. By fish scale, i mean one that is cylindrical shaped and hangs vertically and has a hook on the lower end, and a ring on top for hanging/holding onto. I think is reads in 1/8 ounce increments.
Something like that may work.
Frankie,
You don't need a fish scale to adjust the lash on a 63-82 box, they are not the way to go. You need a 0-30 in/lb dial TW.
The best option is to remove the box from the car and adjust it on the bench since there are 2 adjustments to make, the preload of the worm bearings and the high center(not true center). I wouldn't bother with the preload on a used box since it's probably -0- or close to it. If it was rebuilt and out then yes I would. The proper way is with the sector out of the box. At this point you are almost going through the box anyway as I don't like to use seals once the shafts have been removed so that is something I would do, especially if Mobil1 was used.
Now on the car lash adjustment can be made and if the gears are good should be an improvement. The information doing this on this site and others for many years has been wrong. This is how it should be done:
1- center the steering. Now this can be tricky since the high center and the true centers are off a lot. If the true center is used and the high center is several degrees off then over adjustment may result in an over tight lash wearing out the sectors center tooth too soon. BUT for the sake of argument we will assume your box is correctly on high lash- if rebuilt all bets are off as I have found some very odd "rebuilt" boxes over time, to be polite.
2- with the box on high center, loosen the lash nut while holding the lash bolt with a long slotted screwdriver. Turn the lash bolt CW until you feel it snug up, don't jump on it at this point. See how much it turns, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 turn? Once snug hold it and tighten the nut. DO NOT BACK IT OFF 1/4 TURN- this is 100% wrong information and way too often repeated here.
3- Drive the car and check the feel. Depending on how much you had to turn the screw will depend on how good the gears are. Again all this is better done off the car with the TW where you can see just what the box is doing. If there is still some play in it, go back and adjust it again. If there are no threads left after adjustment or it feels tighter off center the gears are done. Nothing will change it other then a new set of gears- properly setup. The fish scale reading is not going to show this and can give a false reading if there is drag from the rag to steering wheel, remember the C1 boxes have solid shafts from the box to the steering wheel.
I held an tech seminar at my house a few weeks ago and went through this with one of the cars driven in. The response was 100% better without any play on center and only took a few minutes using a 5/8 combo and long screwdriver.
Now on the car lash adjustment can be made and if the gears are good should be an improvement. The information doing this on this site and others for many years has been wrong. This is how it should be done:
1- center the steering. Now this can be tricky since the high center and the true centers are off a lot. If the true center is used and the high center is several degrees off then over adjustment may result in an over tight lash wearing out the sectors center tooth too soon. BUT for the sake of argument we will assume your box is correctly on high lash- if rebuilt all bets are off as I have found some very odd "rebuilt" boxes over time, to be polite.
2- with the box on high center, loosen the lash nut while holding the lash bolt with a long slotted screwdriver. Turn the lash bolt CW until you feel it snug up, don't jump on it at this point. See how much it turns, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 turn? Once snug hold it and tighten the nut. DO NOT BACK IT OFF 1/4 TURN- this is 100% wrong information and way too often repeated here.
3- Drive the car and check the feel. Depending on how much you had to turn the screw will depend on how good the gears are. Again all this is better done off the car with the TW where you can see just what the box is doing. If there is still some play in it, go back and adjust it again. If there are no threads left after adjustment or it feels tighter off center the gears are done. Nothing will change it other then a new set of gears- properly setup. The fish scale reading is not going to show this and can give a false reading if there is drag from the rag to steering wheel, remember the C1 boxes have solid shafts from the box to the steering wheel.
I held an tech seminar at my house a few weeks ago and went through this with one of the cars driven in. The response was 100% better without any play on center and only took a few minutes using a 5/8 combo and long screwdriver.
Yup! I used this method for 45+ years on my 67, checking it every 5 years or so. The box was still good and tight after 50 years of service and just under 100k miles, at which point I replaced it with a Borgeson conversion for other reasons.
Agreed...great post by GTR1999...should be a sticky. About 7-8 years ago I was bragging on the GTO forum about how my original, 230,000 mile PS gearbox was still holding up, and that was enough to jinx it. It blew out it's input shaft and sector shaft seals about a week later. Amazing how long a gearbox can last in the first place, though. These cars were well built.
Well I nudged the adjustment a bit (gingerly) and it seems to have helped.....I still have a couple threads showing on the adjustment screw so I'm hoping things are OK as far as wear. The slop is gone, there is no binding and the steering wheel returns smoothly after turns. I'll run with this setup for a while...
I also lubed up the tie rods, relay rod, upper and lower ball joints and the driveshaft U-joints, steering box lube was already A-OK...
I couldn't remember if I'd ever done that or not and boy the ball joints took some serious shots of grease...
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 10-22-2018 at 04:08 PM.
Your adjustment appears to mirror what was performed in the video. Sort of like the third shot drop in pickleball---you know its right when it feels right.....
Last edited by Dan Hampton; 10-22-2018 at 05:26 PM.
Glad to hear you had a positive improvement with the lash screw adjustment. That might be all you need to do, the fact you still have some threads showing above the jam nut is good with the lash tight now. The 63-82 Saginaw boxes can be built to steer better then new with some good parts and procedures.
Mileage is not a good indicator on the condition of these boxes, adjustment and storage play more into the life span of the box. I have had original boxes in with under 40k miles with worn or bad gears and others with over 150k miles with good gears. Improper adjustment will wear the center tooth on the sector,since it is slightly larger to control straight steering lash. Storage over time with moisture exposure will cause the grease or old sludge that was once grease to turn acidic and will cause corrosion and pitting on the metal parts. I have seen box worms and teeth, also trailing arm bearings, seized in place and create a step in the race.
The best preventive maintenance to do on a box that has been untouched for a long time is to remove it, pull the cover and clean out the old lube. Install new seals and dail it in. This is not a rebuild although many call that one, it is good to get the old grease out rather then use a zerk fitting in a cover bolt to pump in more grease. The new grease will not displace the old acidic muck that most likely is in an old box.
Well I nudged the adjustment a bit (gingerly) and it seems to have helped.....I still have a couple threads showing on the adjustment screw so I'm hoping things are OK as far as wear. The slop is gone, there is no binding and the steering wheel returns smoothly after turns. I'll run with this setup for a while...
I also lubed up the tie rods, relay rod, upper and lower ball joints and the driveshaft U-joints, steering box lube was already A-OK...
I couldn't remember if I'd ever done that or not and boy the ball joints took some serious shots of grease...
Frank, with the steering box and column still in the car, how did you determine that you had the wheel at high center instead of just centered? Is it a feel of the wheel or something else? I have a bunch of threads left on my adjustment screw and would like to see if I can tighten mine up a little, but want to hit the high center position as suggested.
If you read Gary's treatise above its more about faith than science. Without opening or removing the box you can not guarantee that the center point and high point are in synch. My driveway slopes down a bit so I let the car roll down it while keeping the car perfectly aligned with the straight edge of the driveway; I gently moved the steering wheel a few degrees right and left to "feel" the change in resistance while rolling to get to the center (high ?) point. I then verified that the steering wheel was straight and the tires as well once I exited the car. Best I could do...
I think prob all original boxes and most rebuilt boxes are OK - putting the occasional dufus rebuilder aside.... And if you did get a "dufus" rebuilt box and the gear wears prematurely because of your adjustment then it prob needed rebuilt anyway...as you don't know what else is wrong...
I went this route (I would normally just pull the box off to work on it) because, from the horn button to the Pitman arm, 63 steering systems are the "worst" of the breed to mess with. One year only turn signal setup, one year only upper steering column bearing, one-year only upper bushing (instead of the usual spring) and on-and-on.
Every time you delve into this system its a chance to enter Dante's 10th ring of hell...
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 10-23-2018 at 08:17 AM.
If you read Gary's treatise above its more about faith than science. Without opening or removing the box you can not guarantee that the center point and high point are in synch. My driveway slopes down a bit so I let the car roll down it while keeping the car perfectly aligned with the straight edge of the driveway; I gently moved the steering wheel a few degrees right and left to "feel" the change in resistance to get to the center (high ?) point. I then verified that the steering wheel was straight and the tires as well once I exited the car. Best I could do...
I think prob all original boxes and most rebuilt boxes are OK - putting the occasional dufus rebuilder aside.... And if you did get a "dufus" rebuilt box and the gear wears prematurely because of your adjustment then it prob needed rebuilt anyway...as you don't know what else is wrong...
Understood. How far did you turn the screw each time? 1/8 of a turn? 1/4 of a turn? I tend to get too aggressive and this isn't a place I want to over do it.
It took about 1/4 turn to reach “snug”. The definition of. “snug” is the dodgy part. With a large handle screwdriver using ONLY my right hand I turned the screw clockwise until I felt like it couldn’t back off on its own and then a "scooch" (technical term) more -maybe 1/16th turn, and held the screw while tightening the lock nut. I did NOT back off on the screw while doing that. If the steering had still felt loose after a drive I prob would go no more than an 1/8 turn at a time but I apparently didn’t need to do that. If the test drive had revealed binding or failure to return to.center while turning I would have backed off 1/4 turn and gone clockwise again with a little less force.
Its very much much like winding a vintage pocket watch or mantle clock, you keep going until you hit firm mechanical resistance and no more.
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 10-23-2018 at 08:35 AM.
It took about 1/4 turn to reach “snug”. The definition of. “snug” is the dodgy part. With a large handle screwdriver using ONLY my right hand I turned the screw clockwise until I felt like it couldn’t back off on its own and then a "scooch" (technical term) more -maybe 1/16th turn, and held the screw while tightening the lock nut. I did NOT back off on the screw while doing that. If the steering had still felt loose after a drive I prob would go no more than an 1/8 turn at a time but I apparently didn’t need to do that. If the test drive had revealed binding or failure to return to.center while turning I would have backed off 1/4 turn and gone clockwise again with a little less force.
Its very much much like winding a vintage pocket watch or mantle clock, you keep going until you hit firm mechanical resistance and no more.
Did you also put new grease in your steering box? I would be willing to bet that mine has never been cracked open. Not sure I could get all of the old stuff out while still mounted in the car, but not sure if that would matter if I get most of it and refill with new. Thoughts?
10-21-2018, 01:01 PM
Steering box adjustment in car
