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How many believe Chevrolet is holding back on record for these old car?

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How many believe Chevrolet is holding back on record for these old car?

Old 12-03-2018, 11:29 PM
  #21  
Duck916
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Nowadays just about every well-run company will have a detailed document destruction policy. It's a crime to destroy documents to avoid a subpoena, but it's simply good practice to regularly destroy documents that you've determined have no value after x number of years. And it's also good practice to retain other documents in perpetuity.

But things were different in the '60s. I work in the insurance industry where it is common to need to find old policies and other documents to deal with current claims (typically for environmental or toxic tort cases). But companies generally didn't retain those documents very well, even if they were microfiched. Today there are people who call themselves "insurance archaeologists" who specialize in trying to re-create policies from various databases. I have worked with these folks and have gone so far as to have people asked in depositions about whether or not they could identify the signatures on reinsurance "slips" (these are handwritten documents where various underwriters subscribed to a particular reinsurance treaty, often at Lloyd's).

So, it doesn't surprise me that GM's records from the '50s, '60s and even early '70s are missing or incomplete. I doubt there was any nefarious intent behind this. It's just how it was.
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Old 12-03-2018, 11:39 PM
  #22  
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This topic like the 67 big block hoods installed on small blocks is a dead horse beaten unmercifully. There was a member here a GM employee at the time who was tasked by Jim Perkins the then general manager of Chevrolet to scour the entire operation in search of these records in the US and the simple truth is they didn't exist.
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Old 12-04-2018, 12:59 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by 68hemi View Post
I do. I don't believe that the records were lost in fires, were destroyed by water or simply discarded as some of the stories we hear. I believe it is a liability issue for them.
GM has the info for Pontiac's, and has made the info available to the public for many years. GM of Canada has the info, and has made it available to the public for many years. GM has the info for Corvettes made from the late 70's on, and has made it available for many years. So if they have been willing to provide this info, what would be any different about offering it for other years, if they had it? GM has had no liability issues as a result of releasing the info for Pontiacs, GM of Canada cars, or Corvettes built since the late 70's, so why would they face liability issues over releasing the info for cars built in the 60's or early 70's? Ford and Chrysler have provided this info for years also, and it's never been a liability issue for either of them.

If GM had the information, they would make it available, because they could make money on it, and GM never misses a chance to make money!

Years ago there was a law suit filed against Pontiac because they were putting Chevy engines in their model similar to the Nova that through proceeds of the suit ended in for one thing the release of records to the public which created the Pontiac Historical Society (PHS) and I don't think that every would have come to be if it were not for that law suit forcing their hand.
The law suit over Chevrolet engines, had nothing to do with Pontiac. It was 1977, and the law suit was a result of Oldsmobile having a shortage of Olds 350's for their Delta 88's, so they substituted Chevrolet 350's. It was a class action suit brought against GM by the State of Illinois, after an Olds owner had trouble getting his car serviced, and realized the the reason his Olds parts wouldn't fit, was because he had a Chevy 350. That I know of, the creation of PHS had nothing to do with the Chevy engines in Oldsmobiles law suit.



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Old 12-04-2018, 01:12 AM
  #24  
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The government doesn't have my Dad's WWII records. His part of the alphabet was lost in a fire. Do I believe them? Yes I do. Do I think GM and Chevrolet are holding out and secretly still have Corvette records from 1953 to now? Not on a fit. Believe me I doubt anybody back then was concerned about what GM vehicles would become desirable and collectible so lets keep the records in a dedicated area so some day they can be used for future reference. Not likely.
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:01 AM
  #25  
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no the records were not lost in a fire they were destroyed however. Jim Mattison of Pontiac Historical services can tell you the day, date and the woman`s name who signed the order to destroy Corvette records...
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:49 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by 68hemi View Post
I know that Chrysler still has IBM cards that you can order for 1967 model year up cars through Chrysler Historical. They are cards that were scanned onto microfiche and then photo copied to be sent to the customers that order them and they are blurry and hard to read. I would think there may also have been a hard copy of the build sheet or at least a copy of the original invoice that the dealer would have received a copy of prior to the arrival of the car to pay for the car from. They were filed by the corporate office. After a period of years they would be moved to storage in one of their massive building somewhere.
The Chrysler IBM cards go back to the mid 50's, and a microfiche copy is free with proof of ownership. CHS claims to charge $45, payable by check, but I am not aware of them ever actually cashing the check. I have one for all my 57 Dodges.

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Old 12-04-2018, 11:00 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by 68hemi View Post
What do you think?
Me thinkz somebody still believes in Santa. Sorry to break the news with this attachment:
Attached Images
File Type: pdf
Corvette Build Records.pdf (367.1 KB, 135 views)
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:04 AM
  #28  
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Doesn't prove a thing if you believe Mr. Armstrong was lying. Which some here will.
You know that no one over at NCRS can be trusted........
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:07 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Swept57 View Post
The Chrysler IBM cards go back to the mid 50's, and a microfiche copy is free with proof of ownership. CHS claims to charge $45, payable by check, but I am not aware of them ever actually cashing the check. I have one for all my 57 Dodges.
I see I made a mistake as the records are available for model years 67 and back rather than 67 forward, sorry.
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:46 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by 427 Sidepipes View Post
Me thinkz somebody still believes in Santa. Sorry to break the news with this attachment:
When I read that in the Corvette Restorer, that was all the proof I needed. No records exist. Simple as that. However, there are some that don't like the issue being clouded with facts.
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Old 12-04-2018, 12:47 PM
  #31  
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With increasing liability related litigation in the 1970s, it was most often in a (any) companies best interest to not keep old records as they can be subpoenaed. If you don't have any, you cannot be compelled to produce any. You may ask what certain car option records may have to do with liability. Well, in most cases it wouldn't, but what is worrisome to a company is internal memos related to other things discussing defects and fixes, etc, may be buried in those records, so the whole enchilada gets tossed.

Ford Pinto gas tanks, anyone?

Doug
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Old 12-04-2018, 12:50 PM
  #32  
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Savings all the old records is an expense with little to no further return for GM back then so the ditched them.
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Old 12-04-2018, 12:55 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by 65hihp View Post
Doesn't prove a thing if you believe Mr. Armstrong was lying. Which some here will.
You know that no one over at NCRS can be trusted........
Many years back we had our Michigan Chapter meeting at Art's home and he gave a presentation on the issue. I was new to the Corvette world but Art left no doubt in my mind that the records no longer exist.
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:07 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by 68hemi View Post
The way that most of the auto manufacturers did it was the hand written dealer order form arrived at the GM office and it was input to the IBM computer and a punch card was created with the order number, model number, V.I.N. and options. When the car was scheduled for production that is when the build sheet was created at the assembly plant.

I know that Chrysler still has IBM cards that you can order for 1967 model year up cars through Chrysler Historical. They are cards that were scanned onto microfiche and then photo copied to be sent to the customers that order them and they are blurry and hard to read. I would think there may also have been a hard copy of the build sheet or at least a copy of the original invoice that the dealer would have received a copy of prior to the arrival of the car to pay for the car from. They were filed by the corporate office. After a period of years they would be moved to storage in one of their massive building somewhere.
I found out where they stored them...
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:13 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by 427 Sidepipes View Post
Me thinkz somebody still believes in Santa. Sorry to break the news with this attachment:
Thanks for posting that article. I accept Mr. Armstrong's assessment that the records no longer exist.
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:18 PM
  #36  
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Just my two cents worth.
A little different angle on this subject. On August 12, 1953 General Motors' Hydra-Matic plant in Livonia, Michigan burned completely down, taking with it all engineering drawings and paper notices for engineering changes and releases. Also, all records for purchasing and shipping were also destroyed. It took GM many years to reproduce those records.

As a result of this fire, GM went to GM Photographic, a group within the GM Technical Center. They were instructed that all printed records from all GM plants and offices from that day forward were to be copied (microfiche) and sent to a secured climate controlled location in Nevada. This included all departments from engineering, sales, purchasing, accounting and plant engineering documents.

I worked for the real GM back in the 1960s and had the pleasure of meeting and working with the group of people from GM photographic that traveled around the country and came to each assembly plant and microfiche each drawing and all engineering records including purchasing, sales documents and etc. Those microfiche reels were then sent to Nevada. A beautiful lady named Rose from Allen Park, Michigan was my contact. Just wish I could remember her last name.

The question remains, do those documents still exists today after GMs bankruptcy and was the St Louis plant included? We will never know!
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:20 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by 427 Sidepipes View Post
Me thinkz somebody still believes in Santa. Sorry to break the news with this attachment:
Thanks for the link to the article. That puts the subject to bed for me. Thanks to everyone for their comments in this thread.
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:48 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by 68hemi View Post
The way that most of the auto manufacturers did it was the hand written dealer order form arrived at the GM office and it was input to the IBM computer and a punch card was created with the order number, model number, V.I.N. and options. When the car was scheduled for production that is when the build sheet was created at the assembly plant.

I know that Chrysler still has IBM cards that you can order for 1967 model year up cars through Chrysler Historical. They are cards that were scanned onto microfiche and then photo copied to be sent to the customers that order them and they are blurry and hard to read. I would think there may also have been a hard copy of the build sheet or at least a copy of the original invoice that the dealer would have received a copy of prior to the arrival of the car to pay for the car from. They were filed by the corporate office. After a period of years they would be moved to storage in one of their massive building somewhere.
You're talking about one of these cards.



In a very few cases, these cards have actually been found inside some cars, discarded by a line worker. If Chevy had saved all of them it reminds me of the last scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark. I agree with Glenn, that since GM has furnished so many other documents without fear of litigation, why would they hold back these earlier years (if they had them)?

Verne
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Old 12-04-2018, 08:11 PM
  #39  
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There is no reason for a conspiracy to exist: General Motors Company (today's entity) has absolutely no reason hide anything that occurred during the many years that General Motors Corporation (yesteryear's entity) was in business. Two completely different firms. More critically, every single person who might have worked for GM in the 60's, including those who might have had some obscure reason to hide something, is either retired or dead.

If and its a huge 'IF' microfiches still exist, nobody knows that, or else they'd have spirited them away years ago and sold them for a fortune to the highest bidder (that bidder likely being a major used car dealer of some repute)....

Give it up and get back to the moon landing conspiracy.

Mike
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:51 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Duck916 View Post
Nowadays just about every well-run company will have a detailed document destruction policy. It's a crime to destroy documents to avoid a subpoena, but it's simply good practice to regularly destroy documents that you've determined have no value after x number of years.
When I worked for the railroad a federal inspector made one of his periodic visits. He asked to see our inspection records for something or other. I hauled out a thick stack. He said "You know you only have to keep these for 90 days (or whatever the interval was, I forget now). I said I knew but we had several years worth so there they were.

He said that even tho we only had to keep them 90 days, if we gave him something older than that he could look at it, and if he found a deficiency back then he could write us up, or even recommend a fine. He said "Now I'm going to visit the rest room, and when I come back I'll need to see your records." When he came back, he had exactly the amount of records we were required to have sitting on the desk, nothing more. He smiled and nodded approval.

As for Corvette records in particular, it's hard for some folks today to realize that back then these were just cars. Yes they had a following, but nobody dreamed there would be the interest and demand for all the tiny details which we have today. GM made them, sold them, cashed the check and moved on.
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