Out with Old Frame and in with the Reconditioned Replacement Frame
12-22-2018, 12:07 PM
#21
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2018
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It was a very good move swapping out that frame, it would be very difficult to save if the rest of it looked anything like that picture. You are making great progress, please keep posting pictures. Your painter is **** just the way we like them! I usually just fog on a light, but inconsistent coat of guide coat that takes about 15 minutes to cover the entire car. Let’s hope he puts as much attention to the rest of the prep and final paint, she will be gorgeous!
12-22-2018, 01:43 PM
#22
Racer
Thread Starter
Chris … that's a good idea about checking although they would have to take my word on the new frame number as it can’t be seen with the body mounted on the new frame and the old frame number is indistinguishable due to deterioration. I believe the frame number is just the last 8 numbers of the VIN. I wonder how they would do that with the last 8 digits of the new frame not matching the last 8 digits of the VIN number of the plate that’s riveted to the Z-bar under glove compartment.
Pat … thanks … yeah it getting exciting.
Factoid … yes I'm glad I went with a good replacement frame. Those pics were the worst of it and I’m sure there people who know frames and have welding skills that can salvage that frame but I don’t have those skills. Actually I had never heard of a glide coat before either so this is new for me but I saw a ’63 split window coupe that was ahead of mine and it turned out gorgeous so I’m happy so far.
Pat … thanks … yeah it getting exciting.
Factoid … yes I'm glad I went with a good replacement frame. Those pics were the worst of it and I’m sure there people who know frames and have welding skills that can salvage that frame but I don’t have those skills. Actually I had never heard of a glide coat before either so this is new for me but I saw a ’63 split window coupe that was ahead of mine and it turned out gorgeous so I’m happy so far.
12-22-2018, 02:15 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Great job and thanks for the steps to reinstall the body.
”although they would have to take my word on the new frame number as it can’t be seen with the body mounted on the new frame and the old frame number is indistinguishable due to deterioration. I believe the frame number is just the last 8 numbers of the VIN”
I am guessing the vin number on the frame would only be an issue if their was some misrepresentation. I understand the letter of the law but the numbers on my old frame are indistinguishable and I cannot find the numbers on my perfect replacement frame.
I go out of my way to document my builds. It will never be an issue for me or 99% of those that use a GM frame. Aftermarket may be a little harder with DMV’s on an inspection.
I am guessing the vin number on the frame would only be an issue if their was some misrepresentation. I understand the letter of the law but the numbers on my old frame are indistinguishable and I cannot find the numbers on my perfect replacement frame.
I go out of my way to document my builds. It will never be an issue for me or 99% of those that use a GM frame. Aftermarket may be a little harder with DMV’s on an inspection.
12-22-2018, 06:13 PM
#25
Race Director
After 30 + years of law enforcement experience in Michigan, a VIN stamping on a frame would be considered supplemental/additional evidence in a fraud or stolen car investigation, NOT primary evidence. Keep your photos of the old rusted out frame and the purchase of the new installed frame as evidence on why you replaced the frame and as to why there is not a partial VIN stamp on the new frame.
Neal Porter of Vette Products of Michigan purchased the original GM tooling to produce new frames and has a full time employee producing new Corvette frames with a 8-10 week wait time, so think how many old Corvettes are out there with a new frame w/o a partial VIN stamping.
Neal Porter of Vette Products of Michigan purchased the original GM tooling to produce new frames and has a full time employee producing new Corvette frames with a 8-10 week wait time, so think how many old Corvettes are out there with a new frame w/o a partial VIN stamping.
12-22-2018, 07:44 PM
#27
Race Director
You are welcome. Sometimes folks get to thinking a little to hard and forget plain, simple, common sense.
The primary piece of information to identify a car is the VIN tag and the corresponding title. If for some reason either of those pieces come into question, then secondary identification evidence comes into play. LEO's don't lift a body but know where to cut out in the appropriate areas to expose the VIN stamping on the frame.
The primary piece of information to identify a car is the VIN tag and the corresponding title. If for some reason either of those pieces come into question, then secondary identification evidence comes into play. LEO's don't lift a body but know where to cut out in the appropriate areas to expose the VIN stamping on the frame.
Last edited by ricks327; 12-22-2018 at 07:54 PM.
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12-23-2018, 09:20 AM
#29
Melting Slicks
Very long article but you can check the bullet points for something specific.
such as "Hidden or Confidential VIN"
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What is a Vehicle Identification Number?
A Vehicle Identification Number also commonly known by its acronym “VIN” is the unique identifying serial number of a motor vehicle. Manufacturers of vehicle have assigned unique identifying numbers to their vehicles since the dawn of the automobiles however early forms of vehicle identification numbers were usually very short (three of four numbers) and usually found stamped in the engine block or on a small brass plate on the frame of body of the vehicle. The process of identifying vehicles by their engine numbers started early on but a problem quickly arose when an engine had to be replaced. This problem however was not rectified until approximately 1954. Starting in approximately 1955 US auto manufacturers began using unique Vehicle Identification Numbers to uniquely identify all US built automobiles. The compelling force behind this change in practice was a desire to work with law enforcement and state’s DMVs to reduce the amount and opportunity for VIN fraud and stolen vehicle trafficking. Prior to 1954, vehicles were identified by body number, chassis number, serial number or engine number. One can imagine how confusing this would have been and how great the potential for fraud would have been.
A VIN is the DNA of a vehicle, that is to say it is the unique identifier of every vehicle. The VIN is the number by which s vehicle is registered and titled. Decoding a VIN can tell you many things including when the vehicle was built, the model of the vehicle, the assembly plant and possibly even the original engine displacement. Since a VIN plays such an important role in the identity of a vehicle, much fraud has arisen over the years surrounding VINs.
Where are VINs located and how can I tell if the VIN on my car is the correct VIN?
Since the beginnings of automotive production the engines, bodies and usually the frames of vehicles have been assigned identification numbers usually in a serialized fashion. Beginning with the 1970 model year, nearly all vehicles produced for sale in the United States have had the VIN placed in at least three distinct locations.
Why are VINs so important?
A vehicle’s identification number is very important as it is the only unique identifier a vehicle possesses and accordingly its integrity and validity must be established and preserved. This is especially true with collectible vehicles given their inherent and actual values. When you look a vehicle for potential purchase, you must view the VIN in as many of the locations as you reasonable are able to view it. Start with the public VIN and see if it is consistent with other examples of the year, make and model; ensure that it has not been tampered with or affixed in such a way as to make it not appear as original. If the public VIN is missing, loose or appears tampered with in any way, contact a marque specialist and attempt to locate the hidden or confidential VIN for the vehicle to ensure the public VIN is the proper VIN.
What if the Confidential VIN and the Public VIN do not match?
If the confidential VIN and the public VIN do not match, you have a major problem which needs to be addressed professionally and legally. In short, if the public and confidential VINs contradict one another, you have an unsalable vehicle with a title defect; specifically you have a vehicle which purports to have two identities. Common reasons for the two not to match are that the vehicle itself is stolen or was stolen or salvaged in the past and another VIN (a good clean VIN) was affixed in the public location to make the vehicle appear as though it was “clean” when in reality it was not. Another reason for the two VINs not to match is that the vehicle was rebuilt from several other vehicles. If a vehicle has been rebuilt and bears two VINs that can be a problem as this is the usual excuse that is given when a vehicle has been “re-tagged” to disguise a title problem or a former theft; much scrutiny must be employed in this instance. When the Confidential VIN and the Public VIN do not match it may also be an instance of a “rebody”. A “rebody” is a vehicle which has had the body replaced and the VIN of the original vehicle affixed to the “donor” body. The legal issues surrounding rebodied vehicles are explored in another article.
Many laws have been enacted to protect the integrity of the VIN. Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 511, the alteration of a VIN, could be a federal criminal offense. Further, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 2321 whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, could be fined or imprisoned for up to ten years. Similarly, Pennsylvania’s statutes also address this matter. Specifically, 18 P.S. § 1.4(a) states that a person who alters, counterfeits, defaces, destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates or removes a vehicle identification number with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000. Further, and most concerning is that pursuant to 18 P.S. § 1.4(b) any person who purchases, receives, disposes, sells, transfers or possesses a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with knowledge that the vehicle identification number of the motor vehicle or motor vehicle part has been altered, counterfeited, defaced, destroyed, disguised, falsified, forged, obliterated or removed with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000, or both.
In laymen’s terms the VIN of a vehicle must be preserved and protected and if you are in possession of a vehicle with a VIN or VIN tag or VIN plate which has been altered, removed and replaced or otherwise tampered with you could face serious civil and criminal offenses. The best advice is to contact an attorney at once who can analyze your situation and assist you with identifying your legal options.
Attorney Bryan W. Shook is not only a devoted automotive enthusiast, but is also an experience litigator who devotes a large portion of his law practice to helping other collectors and hobbyists understand today’s market and protect their automotive investments. Attorney Bryan W. Shook is a seasoned automotive collector and restorer and as such brings real world experience and firsthand knowledge to the table for his clients throughout the world. Although Bryan Shook is headquartered in central Pennsylvania (close proximity to Carlisle and Hershey), Attorney Bryan Shook is available anywhere for consultation, advice, and information, most times, on as short as a day’s notice. If you’d like more information about this topic or would like to speak with Attorney Bryan W. Shook please email him at BShook@shooklegal or by phone at 717-884-9010. More information can be found at Http://www.vintagecarlaw.com.
Tags: <2. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards Certification Sticker, Attorney Bryan W. Shook, Brian Shook, Bryan Shook, Bryan W. Shook, Camp Hill attorney, car DNA, car fraud, car law, car litigation, car values, carlisle car show, certificate of title, clean title, confidential VIN, DMV fraud, engine number, FMVSS, FMVSS certification sticker, frame VIN, harrisburg attorney, Harrisburg auto law, Harrisburg Car Lawyer, Harrisburg Lawyer, Hidden VIN, how do I get a title, missing VIN, National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, no title, Penndot fraud, Pennsylvania car lawyer, Pennsylvania car title attorney, Pennsylvania car title law, Pennsylvania car title lawyer, Pennsylvania title law, rebodied car, rebody, restamped VIN, title fraud, titling by engine number, titling by frame number, Vehicle Identification Number, VIN derivative, VIN does not match, VIN doesn't match, VIN number, VIN tampering, Vintage Automotive, what is the proper number to title a vehicle by, where is the hidden VIN, windshield VIN, wrong VIN>
such as "Hidden or Confidential VIN"
Vintage Car Law
The Definitive Collector Car Market WeblogRSS Feed
Comments
Vehicle Identification Numbers
OCTOBER 2, 2013 · POSTED IN NEWS · COMMENTS OFF ON VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBERSVehicle Identification Numbers
(What are they; where are they found and why are they important?)What is a Vehicle Identification Number?
A Vehicle Identification Number also commonly known by its acronym “VIN” is the unique identifying serial number of a motor vehicle. Manufacturers of vehicle have assigned unique identifying numbers to their vehicles since the dawn of the automobiles however early forms of vehicle identification numbers were usually very short (three of four numbers) and usually found stamped in the engine block or on a small brass plate on the frame of body of the vehicle. The process of identifying vehicles by their engine numbers started early on but a problem quickly arose when an engine had to be replaced. This problem however was not rectified until approximately 1954. Starting in approximately 1955 US auto manufacturers began using unique Vehicle Identification Numbers to uniquely identify all US built automobiles. The compelling force behind this change in practice was a desire to work with law enforcement and state’s DMVs to reduce the amount and opportunity for VIN fraud and stolen vehicle trafficking. Prior to 1954, vehicles were identified by body number, chassis number, serial number or engine number. One can imagine how confusing this would have been and how great the potential for fraud would have been.
A VIN is the DNA of a vehicle, that is to say it is the unique identifier of every vehicle. The VIN is the number by which s vehicle is registered and titled. Decoding a VIN can tell you many things including when the vehicle was built, the model of the vehicle, the assembly plant and possibly even the original engine displacement. Since a VIN plays such an important role in the identity of a vehicle, much fraud has arisen over the years surrounding VINs.
Where are VINs located and how can I tell if the VIN on my car is the correct VIN?
Since the beginnings of automotive production the engines, bodies and usually the frames of vehicles have been assigned identification numbers usually in a serialized fashion. Beginning with the 1970 model year, nearly all vehicles produced for sale in the United States have had the VIN placed in at least three distinct locations.
- Public VIN (since January 1, 1968 visible through the windshield)
- Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards Certification Sticker (since August 31, 1969 found in the door jamb or on the door)
- Hidden or Confidential VIN
Why are VINs so important?
A vehicle’s identification number is very important as it is the only unique identifier a vehicle possesses and accordingly its integrity and validity must be established and preserved. This is especially true with collectible vehicles given their inherent and actual values. When you look a vehicle for potential purchase, you must view the VIN in as many of the locations as you reasonable are able to view it. Start with the public VIN and see if it is consistent with other examples of the year, make and model; ensure that it has not been tampered with or affixed in such a way as to make it not appear as original. If the public VIN is missing, loose or appears tampered with in any way, contact a marque specialist and attempt to locate the hidden or confidential VIN for the vehicle to ensure the public VIN is the proper VIN.
What if the Confidential VIN and the Public VIN do not match?
If the confidential VIN and the public VIN do not match, you have a major problem which needs to be addressed professionally and legally. In short, if the public and confidential VINs contradict one another, you have an unsalable vehicle with a title defect; specifically you have a vehicle which purports to have two identities. Common reasons for the two not to match are that the vehicle itself is stolen or was stolen or salvaged in the past and another VIN (a good clean VIN) was affixed in the public location to make the vehicle appear as though it was “clean” when in reality it was not. Another reason for the two VINs not to match is that the vehicle was rebuilt from several other vehicles. If a vehicle has been rebuilt and bears two VINs that can be a problem as this is the usual excuse that is given when a vehicle has been “re-tagged” to disguise a title problem or a former theft; much scrutiny must be employed in this instance. When the Confidential VIN and the Public VIN do not match it may also be an instance of a “rebody”. A “rebody” is a vehicle which has had the body replaced and the VIN of the original vehicle affixed to the “donor” body. The legal issues surrounding rebodied vehicles are explored in another article.
Many laws have been enacted to protect the integrity of the VIN. Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 511, the alteration of a VIN, could be a federal criminal offense. Further, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 2321 whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, could be fined or imprisoned for up to ten years. Similarly, Pennsylvania’s statutes also address this matter. Specifically, 18 P.S. § 1.4(a) states that a person who alters, counterfeits, defaces, destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates or removes a vehicle identification number with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000. Further, and most concerning is that pursuant to 18 P.S. § 1.4(b) any person who purchases, receives, disposes, sells, transfers or possesses a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with knowledge that the vehicle identification number of the motor vehicle or motor vehicle part has been altered, counterfeited, defaced, destroyed, disguised, falsified, forged, obliterated or removed with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000, or both.
In laymen’s terms the VIN of a vehicle must be preserved and protected and if you are in possession of a vehicle with a VIN or VIN tag or VIN plate which has been altered, removed and replaced or otherwise tampered with you could face serious civil and criminal offenses. The best advice is to contact an attorney at once who can analyze your situation and assist you with identifying your legal options.
Attorney Bryan W. Shook is not only a devoted automotive enthusiast, but is also an experience litigator who devotes a large portion of his law practice to helping other collectors and hobbyists understand today’s market and protect their automotive investments. Attorney Bryan W. Shook is a seasoned automotive collector and restorer and as such brings real world experience and firsthand knowledge to the table for his clients throughout the world. Although Bryan Shook is headquartered in central Pennsylvania (close proximity to Carlisle and Hershey), Attorney Bryan Shook is available anywhere for consultation, advice, and information, most times, on as short as a day’s notice. If you’d like more information about this topic or would like to speak with Attorney Bryan W. Shook please email him at BShook@shooklegal or by phone at 717-884-9010. More information can be found at Http://www.vintagecarlaw.com.
Tags: <2. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards Certification Sticker, Attorney Bryan W. Shook, Brian Shook, Bryan Shook, Bryan W. Shook, Camp Hill attorney, car DNA, car fraud, car law, car litigation, car values, carlisle car show, certificate of title, clean title, confidential VIN, DMV fraud, engine number, FMVSS, FMVSS certification sticker, frame VIN, harrisburg attorney, Harrisburg auto law, Harrisburg Car Lawyer, Harrisburg Lawyer, Hidden VIN, how do I get a title, missing VIN, National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, no title, Penndot fraud, Pennsylvania car lawyer, Pennsylvania car title attorney, Pennsylvania car title law, Pennsylvania car title lawyer, Pennsylvania title law, rebodied car, rebody, restamped VIN, title fraud, titling by engine number, titling by frame number, Vehicle Identification Number, VIN derivative, VIN does not match, VIN doesn't match, VIN number, VIN tampering, Vintage Automotive, what is the proper number to title a vehicle by, where is the hidden VIN, windshield VIN, wrong VIN>
12-23-2018, 09:22 AM
#30
Melting Slicks
also a long article, Ps, use the tags at the bottom of the article if you have any questions.Vintage Car Law
The Definitive Collector Car Market Weblog
RSS Feed
CommentsRebodied Cars … what to do …
JUNE 29, 2012 · POSTED IN NEWS Rebodies:
What’s the big deal???
(By: Bryan W. Shook, Esquire)
BShook@shooklegal.com
717-884-9010
I’ve been getting quite a few calls lately seeking information on re-bodied vehicles. The term “rebody” is a term of art used throughout our hobby to denote a vehicle whose original factory body has been replaced with another “donor” body. The donor body is then given the original body’s VIN, serial number, data card, trim tag, cowl tag, etc. and then usually and most unfortunately sold to an unsuspecting buyer as the original, real deal automobile. This problem is complicated when the rebodied car is an “air car” which did not exist prior to the rebody. Specifically what happens is someone dreams up a car or has the paperwork from a desirable car and makes it from “thin air” using the donor body as the starting point. All of a sudden, the car has pedigree, provenance and history if the builder can dream up a good enough story. This is problematic as you can plainly see.
There are several legal issues when it comes to a rebodied automobile. The most important issue is whether or not the rebody was disclosed to you when you purchased the vehicle. If the rebody was not disclosed to you how can it be said you negotiated with the seller on equal footing. Another issue comes from the fact that rarely are rebodys done properly. Were the police notified of the body replacement as required under some state laws? Did the seller give you two Certificates of Titles? (Remember the best bodies come from good cars and in today’s day and age, good cars get restored … was the body stolen and the subject vehicle the product of a “chop shop”) Did the seller give you photographs of the original body to evidence the condition of the original body? Do you have confirmation that the original body has been destroyed? (This is usually where the State Police come in as this is where the stories start about two cars registered under the same VIN)
Without the safeguards outlined above, you can never been shore that the vehicle you purchased truly belongs to you. Under the law you would have a breach of the warranty of title claim if any third party were to ever come after you claiming you own the body to their car. The problem is that if you know the car has been rebodied and you can’t provide the above information to a new purchaser you could be just as liable as the seller who sold the car to you should you not disclose what you know to a prospective purchaser.
If you have a rebodied car or think you do, this is a serious matter. Rebodied cars can be nearly unsaleable and always have questions. There was way to rectify the situation and there are ways to unwind the transaction which unknowingly left you with the rebody. In any event, please call me and we can discuss your options and to what extent your car may have been rebodied.
Attorney Bryan W. Shook is not only a devoted automotive enthusiast, but is also an experience litigator who devotes a large portion of his law practice to helping other collectors and hobbyists understand today’s market and protect their automotive investments. Attorney Bryan W. Shook is a seasoned automotive collector and restorer and as such brings real world experience and firsthand knowledge to the table for his clients throughout the world. Although Bryan Shook is headquartered in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania (close proximity to Carlisle and Hershey), Attorney Bryan Shook is available anywhere for consultation, advice, and information, most times, on as short as a day’s notice. If you’d like more information about this topic or would like to speak with Attorney Bryan W. Shook please email him at bshook@shooklegal.com or by phone at 717-884-9010. More information can be found at Http://www.vintagecarlaw.com.
Bid with Knowledge; Buy with Confidence – Vintage Car Law
Tags: air car, Attorney Brian Shook, Attorney Bryan Shook, Attorney Bryan W. Shook, Attorney Shook, Barrett-, Barrett-Jackson, Bryan Shook, Bryan W. Shook, Bryan W. Shook Esquire, Camp Hill attorney, Car Attorney, car fraud, car investments, car law, car litigation, car title claim, central pennsylvania attorney, certificate of title, classic car market, Collector Car Attorney, Collector Car Fraud, collector car market analyzation, collector car mispresentation, collector car misrepresentation, cowl tag, current car market, deceipt, declaration of ownership, donor body, engine restamping, fake cowl tag, forged numbers, fraud, fraud attorney, GM F Body, Harrisburg Car Lawyer, misrepresentation, ownership of old car, pennsylavnia, rebodied automobile, rebodied Camaro, Rebodied Hemi, rebody, rebody fraud, rebodyed, restamped numbers, Super Sport, tampered VIN, title claim, UCC, VIN, VIN tampering, Vintage Automotive, Warranty of title, where is my old car, Z28 clones
The Definitive Collector Car Market Weblog
RSS Feed
CommentsRebodied Cars … what to do …
JUNE 29, 2012 · POSTED IN NEWS Rebodies:
What’s the big deal???
(By: Bryan W. Shook, Esquire)
BShook@shooklegal.com
717-884-9010
I’ve been getting quite a few calls lately seeking information on re-bodied vehicles. The term “rebody” is a term of art used throughout our hobby to denote a vehicle whose original factory body has been replaced with another “donor” body. The donor body is then given the original body’s VIN, serial number, data card, trim tag, cowl tag, etc. and then usually and most unfortunately sold to an unsuspecting buyer as the original, real deal automobile. This problem is complicated when the rebodied car is an “air car” which did not exist prior to the rebody. Specifically what happens is someone dreams up a car or has the paperwork from a desirable car and makes it from “thin air” using the donor body as the starting point. All of a sudden, the car has pedigree, provenance and history if the builder can dream up a good enough story. This is problematic as you can plainly see.
There are several legal issues when it comes to a rebodied automobile. The most important issue is whether or not the rebody was disclosed to you when you purchased the vehicle. If the rebody was not disclosed to you how can it be said you negotiated with the seller on equal footing. Another issue comes from the fact that rarely are rebodys done properly. Were the police notified of the body replacement as required under some state laws? Did the seller give you two Certificates of Titles? (Remember the best bodies come from good cars and in today’s day and age, good cars get restored … was the body stolen and the subject vehicle the product of a “chop shop”) Did the seller give you photographs of the original body to evidence the condition of the original body? Do you have confirmation that the original body has been destroyed? (This is usually where the State Police come in as this is where the stories start about two cars registered under the same VIN)
Without the safeguards outlined above, you can never been shore that the vehicle you purchased truly belongs to you. Under the law you would have a breach of the warranty of title claim if any third party were to ever come after you claiming you own the body to their car. The problem is that if you know the car has been rebodied and you can’t provide the above information to a new purchaser you could be just as liable as the seller who sold the car to you should you not disclose what you know to a prospective purchaser.
If you have a rebodied car or think you do, this is a serious matter. Rebodied cars can be nearly unsaleable and always have questions. There was way to rectify the situation and there are ways to unwind the transaction which unknowingly left you with the rebody. In any event, please call me and we can discuss your options and to what extent your car may have been rebodied.
Attorney Bryan W. Shook is not only a devoted automotive enthusiast, but is also an experience litigator who devotes a large portion of his law practice to helping other collectors and hobbyists understand today’s market and protect their automotive investments. Attorney Bryan W. Shook is a seasoned automotive collector and restorer and as such brings real world experience and firsthand knowledge to the table for his clients throughout the world. Although Bryan Shook is headquartered in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania (close proximity to Carlisle and Hershey), Attorney Bryan Shook is available anywhere for consultation, advice, and information, most times, on as short as a day’s notice. If you’d like more information about this topic or would like to speak with Attorney Bryan W. Shook please email him at bshook@shooklegal.com or by phone at 717-884-9010. More information can be found at Http://www.vintagecarlaw.com.
Bid with Knowledge; Buy with Confidence – Vintage Car Law
Tags: air car, Attorney Brian Shook, Attorney Bryan Shook, Attorney Bryan W. Shook, Attorney Shook, Barrett-, Barrett-Jackson, Bryan Shook, Bryan W. Shook, Bryan W. Shook Esquire, Camp Hill attorney, Car Attorney, car fraud, car investments, car law, car litigation, car title claim, central pennsylvania attorney, certificate of title, classic car market, Collector Car Attorney, Collector Car Fraud, collector car market analyzation, collector car mispresentation, collector car misrepresentation, cowl tag, current car market, deceipt, declaration of ownership, donor body, engine restamping, fake cowl tag, forged numbers, fraud, fraud attorney, GM F Body, Harrisburg Car Lawyer, misrepresentation, ownership of old car, pennsylavnia, rebodied automobile, rebodied Camaro, Rebodied Hemi, rebody, rebody fraud, rebodyed, restamped numbers, Super Sport, tampered VIN, title claim, UCC, VIN, VIN tampering, Vintage Automotive, Warranty of title, where is my old car, Z28 clones
Last edited by Roger Walling; 12-23-2018 at 10:42 AM.
12-23-2018, 10:23 AM
#31
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Member Since: Aug 2008
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Interesting, Roger.
I'm trying to strike the right balance in my remarks here. I can't disagree that the potential for fraud exists. It's also obvious that a legal can of worms can possibly arise with severe headaches attached.
That said, the article was written in 2012, and I cannot imagine the number of frame swaps, new replacement frames, and restomods that have come down the pike since then. The world is still turning and while we occasionally hear about something with problems, overall the hobby seems to be doing just fine. Reasonable diligence and common sense will always be a plus. I just think the
tone of the article is a bit overstated. YMMV.
I'm trying to strike the right balance in my remarks here. I can't disagree that the potential for fraud exists. It's also obvious that a legal can of worms can possibly arise with severe headaches attached.
That said, the article was written in 2012, and I cannot imagine the number of frame swaps, new replacement frames, and restomods that have come down the pike since then. The world is still turning and while we occasionally hear about something with problems, overall the hobby seems to be doing just fine. Reasonable diligence and common sense will always be a plus. I just think the
tone of the article is a bit overstated. YMMV.
12-23-2018, 10:39 AM
#32
Melting Slicks
Interesting, Roger.
I'm trying to strike the right balance in my remarks here. I can't disagree that the potential for fraud exists. It's also obvious that a legal can of worms can possibly arise with severe headaches attached.
That said, the article was written in 2012, and I cannot imagine the number of frame swaps, new replacement frames, and restomods that have come down the pike since then. The world is still turning and while we occasionally hear about something with problems, overall the hobby seems to be doing just fine. Reasonable diligence and common sense will always be a plus. I just think the tone of the article is a bit overstated. YMMV.
I'm trying to strike the right balance in my remarks here. I can't disagree that the potential for fraud exists. It's also obvious that a legal can of worms can possibly arise with severe headaches attached.
That said, the article was written in 2012, and I cannot imagine the number of frame swaps, new replacement frames, and restomods that have come down the pike since then. The world is still turning and while we occasionally hear about something with problems, overall the hobby seems to be doing just fine. Reasonable diligence and common sense will always be a plus. I just think the
tone of the article is a bit overstated. YMMV.Be sides, you do the repairs correctly, don't you?
Why not do the legal thing correctly so that you will not have a problem in the future?
12-23-2018, 10:53 AM
#33
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks Rodger and Railroadman ... prior to getting the additional replies since you're first one Rodger I was wondering about the Restomods issue. This replacement frame that I picked up became available due to a Restomod. The person I bought the frame from had his '67 Corvette up for sale and a company from Indiana offered to buy just the body for purposes of doing a Restomod.
I think what I got out of all the information in the articles you mentioned is "INTENT". Seems like there has to be intent to mislead. In my case I'm not planning on selling it and if I did I've got plenty of pics of the old frame & replacement frame & pics of the partial VIN on the new frame and would disclose that and give that to any buyer. I still plan to check this out with my local DMV this next week or maybe the following week due to the upcoming holiday and will update this thread with what I find out.
I think what I got out of all the information in the articles you mentioned is "INTENT". Seems like there has to be intent to mislead. In my case I'm not planning on selling it and if I did I've got plenty of pics of the old frame & replacement frame & pics of the partial VIN on the new frame and would disclose that and give that to any buyer. I still plan to check this out with my local DMV this next week or maybe the following week due to the upcoming holiday and will update this thread with what I find out.
12-23-2018, 11:13 AM
#34
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Looks like this might better be spun off into its own thread. We're leaving OP's project far afield.
Where do you draw the line? If somebody is doing a build, do you get notarized bill of sale - or whatever - from the guy you buy the motor from? And the tranny? And the differential? All of those can have VIN derivatives stamped on them. How do I know what happened to any given part back in 1972? How do I know somebody 15 years after I'm dead and buried might try to make my 250 hp '64 into an "original" fuelie?
To some degree, the internet in general, and this forum in particular can be useful. Many of us have documented our replacement of frames, motors and other components. Certainly that's a drop in the bucket of all the Vettes out there but if in 15 years someone tries to claim "my" 64 is all original, the pics of my frame broken in half will no doubt put that to rest.
A major factor in all his cautions is the assumption that fraud is involved. He's a lawyer, that's his job, I get it. But if somebody starts out with a legally owned PART of a Vette with a clean VIN, and rebuilds that part up into a complete car, that in and of itself should not be cause for alarm, nor involvement of bureaucrats and gestapos. The vast majority of swaps, replacements and rebuilds are NOT fraudulent and should not be limited or clouded by the few shysters that admittedly do exist.
EDIT: Jcpstrat - sorry if some of what I just posted echoes or dupes your post. I have been composing the reply for about 20 minutes, 3 words at a time between "Honey, now would you....." requests! You got yours done and posted first.
Where do you draw the line? If somebody is doing a build, do you get notarized bill of sale - or whatever - from the guy you buy the motor from? And the tranny? And the differential? All of those can have VIN derivatives stamped on them. How do I know what happened to any given part back in 1972? How do I know somebody 15 years after I'm dead and buried might try to make my 250 hp '64 into an "original" fuelie?
To some degree, the internet in general, and this forum in particular can be useful. Many of us have documented our replacement of frames, motors and other components. Certainly that's a drop in the bucket of all the Vettes out there but if in 15 years someone tries to claim "my" 64 is all original, the pics of my frame broken in half will no doubt put that to rest.
A major factor in all his cautions is the assumption that fraud is involved. He's a lawyer, that's his job, I get it. But if somebody starts out with a legally owned PART of a Vette with a clean VIN, and rebuilds that part up into a complete car, that in and of itself should not be cause for alarm, nor involvement of bureaucrats and gestapos. The vast majority of swaps, replacements and rebuilds are NOT fraudulent and should not be limited or clouded by the few shysters that admittedly do exist.
EDIT: Jcpstrat - sorry if some of what I just posted echoes or dupes your post. I have been composing the reply for about 20 minutes, 3 words at a time between "Honey, now would you....." requests! You got yours done and posted first.
Last edited by Railroadman; 12-23-2018 at 11:17 AM.
12-23-2018, 11:24 AM
#35
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Further thought - I fear that by making mountains out of molehills, this could have a negative effect on such modifications. So far, 99% of our collective efforts have gone off without problems. If too many people start going to lawyers and DMV's every time they install someone else's motor or whatever, before long those who specialize in inventing problems will start putting up more and more hoops for folks to jump through. "Gee, there's a lot of people putting new chassis under their cars, and the place that makes the new chassis does not put their VIN on it. We need more regulations and a task force to follow up on stuff like that!"
Leave well enough alone, the sky is not falling, use common sense and a bit of caution, and save the lawyers and bureaucrats for other issues. JMHO.
Leave well enough alone, the sky is not falling, use common sense and a bit of caution, and save the lawyers and bureaucrats for other issues. JMHO.
I think when I go to the DMV I'll say I'm asking for a friend!
12-23-2018, 01:17 PM
#37
Melting Slicks
Railroadman
I personally would not go to the DMV with a missing vin on the frame. A different one though would be a different thing though.
In Ma. you probably would have to apply for a "reconstructed" or a different one that would make it a 2018 year car, model # 57 (or year that it looks like) title.
If an administrator could spin this stuff off to a new thread with a new appropriate title, that would be fine with me.
I personally would not go to the DMV with a missing vin on the frame. A different one though would be a different thing though.
In Ma. you probably would have to apply for a "reconstructed" or a different one that would make it a 2018 year car, model # 57 (or year that it looks like) title.
If an administrator could spin this stuff off to a new thread with a new appropriate title, that would be fine with me.
12-24-2018, 09:13 AM
#38
Safety Car
Chris … that's a good idea about checking although they would have to take my word on the new frame number as it can’t be seen with the body mounted on the new frame and the old frame number is indistinguishable due to deterioration. I believe the frame number is just the last 8 numbers of the VIN. I wonder how they would do that with the last 8 digits of the new frame not matching the last 8 digits of the VIN number of the plate that’s riveted to the Z-bar under glove compartment.
Pat … thanks … yeah it getting exciting.
Factoid … yes I'm glad I went with a good replacement frame. Those pics were the worst of it and I’m sure there people who know frames and have welding skills that can salvage that frame but I don’t have those skills. Actually I had never heard of a glide coat before either so this is new for me but I saw a ’63 split window coupe that was ahead of mine and it turned out gorgeous so I’m happy so far.
Pat … thanks … yeah it getting exciting.
Factoid … yes I'm glad I went with a good replacement frame. Those pics were the worst of it and I’m sure there people who know frames and have welding skills that can salvage that frame but I don’t have those skills. Actually I had never heard of a glide coat before either so this is new for me but I saw a ’63 split window coupe that was ahead of mine and it turned out gorgeous so I’m happy so far.
After 30 + years of law enforcement experience in Michigan, a VIN stamping on a frame would be considered supplemental/additional evidence in a fraud or stolen car investigation, NOT primary evidence. Keep your photos of the old rusted out frame and the purchase of the new installed frame as evidence on why you replaced the frame and as to why there is not a partial VIN stamp on the new frame.
Neal Porter of Vette Products of Michigan purchased the original GM tooling to produce new frames and has a full time employee producing new Corvette frames with a 8-10 week wait time, so think how many old Corvettes are out there with a new frame w/o a partial VIN stamping.
Neal Porter of Vette Products of Michigan purchased the original GM tooling to produce new frames and has a full time employee producing new Corvette frames with a 8-10 week wait time, so think how many old Corvettes are out there with a new frame w/o a partial VIN stamping.
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Hermn59 (12-24-2018)
12-24-2018, 09:47 AM
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Roger Walling (12-24-2018)
12-29-2018, 09:53 AM
#40
Racer
Thread Starter
OK … here’s what I got with checking out the frame replacement issue here in Kentucky.I contacted a detective I know that works in Fraud. He actually works primarily with Credit Card fraud but said he would relay my story to the fraud department that deals with cars. They asked to see a picture of the serial number as stamped in the replacement frame and I provided that.Within hours I was told that the full serial number, that has this frames number as the last 8 characters, belongs to a 67 Corvette that was registered last year in Indiana.
That seems to make sense with the story I was told that the owner sold the body of his 67 Corvette to a company in Indiana that was going to use it for a Restomod. I bought this frame on 6/20/15, so I’m guessing that ’67 Restomod (finished or not), got registered last year with the original serial number that would have been on the body plate under the glove compartment. The detectives said they wanted to make sure the frame I bought didn’t belong to a Corvette that was stolen and parted out, and it didn't show up as being part of a stolen Corvette.
They said there was nothing I needed to do other than hold on to all my documentation i.e. any correspondence with the owner I bought it from, pics of frame and it’s serial number and then provide that information to the next owner if and when I sell it. No plans on that at this point.
I don’t know how this is handled in other states but at least here in Kentucky …. I’m good to go!
That seems to make sense with the story I was told that the owner sold the body of his 67 Corvette to a company in Indiana that was going to use it for a Restomod. I bought this frame on 6/20/15, so I’m guessing that ’67 Restomod (finished or not), got registered last year with the original serial number that would have been on the body plate under the glove compartment. The detectives said they wanted to make sure the frame I bought didn’t belong to a Corvette that was stolen and parted out, and it didn't show up as being part of a stolen Corvette.
They said there was nothing I needed to do other than hold on to all my documentation i.e. any correspondence with the owner I bought it from, pics of frame and it’s serial number and then provide that information to the next owner if and when I sell it. No plans on that at this point.
I don’t know how this is handled in other states but at least here in Kentucky …. I’m good to go!