Roger Walling

Thank you Factoid for posting.
It seems that most posters did not bother to view the entire video and are commenting on something that they do not know the content of.

mike coletta

Roger, I watched the video....hence my comment at the end of my post about the CARFAX. There is NO value in this video for anyone buying an old Corvette. Read post #10. If you got something out of it, then that's great. In all my years of building, buying, selling Corvettes (in three states only), I have NEVER had a DMV employee, a police officer, or a town mayor climb under a 54-67 Corvette looking for a vin number. I've changed frames on 30 cars, and re-registered them with the same vin number. I've sold 30 frames that I've pulled out from under cars, and ground out the vin numbers. . I've moved vin tags. I've sold cars at auctions, and privately, so I'm not going to rely on some YOU tube self applied "lawyer" to convince me to do anything any different. I've broken no laws, and don't intend to break any laws. I've spent no time in jail, and don't intend to. As I said earlier....If you have to rely on a youtube lawyer (well, he says he is), to help you decide to buy a car, then you probably shouldn't buy a car. I know knowledgeable Corvette people who couldn't find the frame stamps if they had to. Do your OWN homework, and understand the laws in YOUR state, and by ALL MEANS "FORGET ABOUT A CARFAX"........which this guy pounds on incessantly. This video is "click bait" at it's finest. I'm done.

BTW, my wife is a lawyer, and won't let me put a purchase price on a car that is "not corrrect" for taxing purposes. I know of 100's of transactions where this takes place (private sales). Maybe somebody should do a video on that, so that we can address the legal issues, and the moral issues of "that". My point is that: if I did something illegal, SHE would be the first person to send me to jail. Sad, but true.

65GGvert

I have owned 23 Corvettes. I have two now, so that means I've sold 21. Never once has anyone looked at the frame. I have had them look at the VIN plate, the title, and the engine stamp. Rarely the engine stamp, and only once that I recall the transmission numbers. Maybe I've sold them so cheap it just doesn't matter. What sold them all was appearance, and performance, and value for the money.

csherman

You have to watch and listen to the video - and really listen
- First
The title of the post is a little misleading.
- Second - Frames have been replaced since the Model T
You can buy them today
Body shops replace them every day
Insurance companies pay for them every day
used parts companies sell them every day

If you listen to the video - the first thing he talks about is VIN swapping - taking a VIN off another car and putting it on another car
in his case - one was stolen - stripped and the VIN applied to another
Also applies to a Total Loss - people go out and buy a total loss - then go slap that VIN to a good car - VIN Swapping.....another animal

Have to take each ....case by case and local and state laws apply.

BADBIRDCAGE

emccomas

OK, I watched the entire video, and I think I got the actual point.

VIN Cloning is an issue, and the creation of the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (owned by the US Department of Justice) is an effort to fight those issues.

For the moment lets forget about the frame VIN not matching the vehicle VIN due to a normal frame replacement as part pf a repair / restoration effort. Lets focus on the issue being discussed.

Some one steals a car, and creates a VIN plate that duplicates the VIN plate of an existing car in another state. Then they sell the car with the cloned VIN.

If the existing car in another state had ANY VIN related transactions occur since 1 Jan 2010, that VIN is registered in the NMVTIS. That is a federal law, and all states are required to comply with entering that VIN information in the NMVTIS database.

So, if another person shows up in a different state with a car that has the same (i.e. cloned) VIN on it, the car with the cloned VIN will NOT be issued a title. The reason is that a title already exists for that vehicle.

This is exactly what happened with 1953 Corvette VIN E53F001029 back in late 2009. Many states were voluntarily participating in the NMVTIS effort prior to 1 Jan 2010. Two of those states were Indiana and Florida. A person claiming ownership of E53F001029 applied for a Florida title. The car belonged to her late husband, and had not been titled for decades. Florida DMV checked NMVTIS, and then informed the woman that the car was already titled in the State of Indiana. Because of that, Florida could not issue a title for that car.

The story of 029 is well known, so I won't go into it here, but ultimately the Indiana title was determined to be as a result of a cloned VIN. The Indiana title was surrendered to Indiana, after which Florida was able to issue the title to the owner in Florida.

The bottom line is cloning a VIN on any car that has had VIN related work done, and is now recorded in NMVTIS, is a loosing proposition. Any person can go online and check NMVTIS for a small fee. NMVTIS records the state of registration, all VIN related transactions, and any title brands (like salvage, flood, etc.).

Now, lets talk about the other part of this issue. A situation where a vehicle VIN tag number does not match the VIN number on the frame because of repair / replacement, etc.

Many years ago there was a big legal battle over ownership of a rare Ferrari. The car had been badly wrecked in a racing accident, and parted out. One person ended up with the body and the VIN tag on the body. Another person ended up with the frame, which still had the VIN stamped on it. Many years went by, and the car climbed in value, to the point where both owners were attempting to restore the car, using the same VIN number.

A legal battle followed. The court finally decided that the frame constituted the basis of this vehicle, and as such, the owner of the frame was also the owner of the VIN number.

I have tried many times to find this case on the internet, but so far I have not been successful. It has been at least a couple of decades since I read this information.

So what does that mean for guys like us. Well, many of us are turning their cars into resto-mods, so we are selling the existing chassis. The seller often states that he is keeping the VIN tag, and retaining ownership of the VIN. The seller may be keeping the VIN tag, but retaining ownership of the VIN is now a legal issue, and up for debate.

Lets say you are resto-modding a 1957 base motor Corvette with a good solid chassis. I buy your good solid chassis. I currently own a decent 1957 Corvette body but no VIN tag. I decide to get a reproduction VIN tag that matches the numbers on the frame. I restore this chassis and body to a factory numbers matching all original fuel injected 4 speed 1957 Corvette.

Now you have this restor-moded 1957 Corvette body with a VIN tag on it, and I have a completely restored 1957 Corvette with a VIN tag on it. Both cars have the same VIN number, but MY frame also has the VIN number that matches the VIN tag. Who is going to win that argument?

A couple of things to keep in mind:

1. Reproduction VIN tags can (and are) being made that cannot be distinguished from original. There are lots of junk VIN tags out there, but not all of them are junk.
2. Generally speaking, whoever registers the VIN number first, and gets the VIN into NMVTIS, has an advantage.

For those people that are selling existing chassis', for whatever reason, you might want to cut the VIN number from the chassis before the sale, and retain it.

Juts my 3 cents...

Roger Walling

Now, I am sorry that I posted the video!

No good deed goes unpunished!

mike coletta

If you extracted ALL OF THAT out of the presented video, then YOU CLEARLY DIDN'T LISTEN. Just my 3 cents back.

Railroadman

The other side of the coin is the new owner may not WANT the old frame number. If I replace my car';s frame with another, I either want no number at all on it, or my own car's number. Not for purposes of fraud, or claiming it's original, but so if I have to go through an inspection of the frame, it will match up with what I legally own. I specifically DON'T want some other number left on the frame to avoid someone - a buyer or a DMV rep - having issues with it.

BTW - for those who think the frame number is never an issue, look up the post made a couple times by AZDoug (I think) about his trials and tribulations trying to register a car in California. The cops were preparing to fire up a saw to cut through his Vette's floor to find the frame number on his, before it was all worked out. It's a well written funny story yet scary at the same time to think how some state agencies can be totally unreasonable.

emccomas

No Mike, I did not extract all of that from the video. I extracted the issues about VIN Cloning from the video.

The rest of the information is from personal knowledge, past experience, etc.

I am curious about one statement you made earlier...

"I've sold 30 frames that I've pulled out from under cars, and ground out the vin numbers."

Can you tell us why you ground out the VIN numbers?

emccomas

Roger, I appreciate the posting of the video. Thank you.

mike coletta

VIN went with the body, and title. Frame is unmarked. Don't want to end up with a 029.

68hemi

Good info here for the masses. Having been in the car business for years and seeing nearly every screwed up title situation there can be personally I would never sell a frame that I did not destroy the partial V.I.N. on it for this very reason. Any time you are selling a part with a V.I.N. on it you could be facing a similar situation IF it goes to court as the final decision can be the call of the judge. Then you have to take further legal action with prior case law sited to get it overturned. A lot of money spent that could be avoided by eliminating the V.I.N. in the first place. In the case of selling an original engine with the V.I.N. on it a simple document stating the facts and intent that the purchaser would sign in front of a notary and retained by the sell will work.

AZDoug

That is exactly what i would do, grind the frame number if i was keeping/using the VIN tag.

FWIW, you can't just get repop VIN tag because you have frame with a VIN. At least from a legitimate source. All the repop venders I talked to want to see proof of registration (tile or registration) to issue a repop tag to me. Yes, i was the one with the CA DMV story, I was able to talk CA into issuing me a state VIN tag with the original SN. They don't normally do that, but now I have three VIN tags on that car, the CA tag, the original dealer issued VIN replacement tag on the door jamb, and the repop on the column, which all match the frame number.

I did end up with a state issued VIN number on my '37 Ford, as i could not get repop tag with just picture of the frame VIN, I would have needed a title with the number also which I didn't have, I used a TCI frame anyway, and on a street rod with 327 Chev motor nobody cares if the VIN is state issued, it doesn't make the truck worth any more or less than if it had the original frame number on the tag. I sold the original frame and did NOT grind the number because i had no need to.
Doug

emccomas

Wise move; others should pay attention.

emccomas

The legitimate vendor will not provide a reproduction VIN tag without proper paperwork, etc. Unfortunately there are others who don't care about paperwork, just the money. And not ALL of the repop vendors want to see proof of ownership.

In addition, there are some very skilled metal forgers out there.

I won't reveal the process other than to state that they often start with a known good VIN tag. I have watched it being done, and it really is a work of art.

tuxnharley

Roger Walling

I wonder if possession of a auto with the VIn ground off would be the same as a pistol with the serial numbers ground off.
How would you prove that a 57 Corvette was yours if the serial number had been ground off and someone stole your serial plate?
( you can take one off in less than a minute with only phillips screwdriver,
far fetched, but could you afford to lose $60,000?)

Railroadman

If someone has a frame I'm buying and they cut it apart to retain the VIN, they just lost the sale. That's preposterous.

A few smooth passes with a grinder to remove the old number, that's fine.

emccomas

I have seen C1 frames with the small section that has the VIN stamps (yes, 2 of them) cut out, and that section replaced with a new piece of steel welded back in.
The owner of the VIN tag wanted to retain ownership of the frame stamps as well.

That is also a good way to repair a rusty or badly damaged frame and keep it "matching numbers".