NCRS 13 month suspension
#41
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These cars all went through a "PV" inspection before they left the factory and all of them passed. What's the problem?
#42
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-‘19-'20-'21-'22-'23-'24
And I share your sentiment re NCRS. I have a ton of respect for those who are patient and meticulous enough to go through the restoration and judging process. My hat is off for the beautiful results. But for me, that's just not who I am. Like someone said above, as long as we both wave to each other as we pass on the road, it's all good in my book.
Last edited by Railroadman; 01-09-2019 at 06:57 PM.
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#44
Le Mans Master
Here ya go - https://www.ncrs.org/njc/PV_Sheets/6...g%20sheets.pdf
Notice that a single failure terminates the test. Things like a Hurst shifter with a stock looking handle = FAIL, Quartz clock movement = FAIL, solid state voltage regulator = FAIL , radio conversion = FAIL and on and on. It's not for the weak of heart and don't expect to fool the judges with non-stock or non-working items.
Notice that a single failure terminates the test. Things like a Hurst shifter with a stock looking handle = FAIL, Quartz clock movement = FAIL, solid state voltage regulator = FAIL , radio conversion = FAIL and on and on. It's not for the weak of heart and don't expect to fool the judges with non-stock or non-working items.
Last edited by 1snake; 01-09-2019 at 07:04 PM.
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#45
Le Mans Master
What's even worse, there is only one judge for the PV test. The National Team Leader for that particular year car. You know how hardass those guys can be when you read that the President of the club needed three tries to succeed with his 62. I know he towed that car half way across the country for each of those tries. If NCRS is not for everyone, the freakin PV test is really not for everyone!
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#46
Drifting
Here ya go - https://www.ncrs.org/njc/PV_Sheets/6...g%20sheets.pdf
Notice that a single failure terminates the test. Things like a Hurst shifter with a stock looking handle = FAIL, Quartz clock movement = FAIL, solid state voltage regulator = FAIL , radio conversion = FAIL and on and on. It's not for the weak of heart and don't expect to fool the judges with non-stock or non-working items.
Notice that a single failure terminates the test. Things like a Hurst shifter with a stock looking handle = FAIL, Quartz clock movement = FAIL, solid state voltage regulator = FAIL , radio conversion = FAIL and on and on. It's not for the weak of heart and don't expect to fool the judges with non-stock or non-working items.
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#49
Melting Slicks
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If you didn't do everything right, and if every restored component isn't just as designed by GM, then the chances of entropy taking over and affecting function increase dramatically. A partially snapped connection, an under-torqued bolt, a missing clip, and a thousand other things can cause unexpected functional failures.
In just one example, I had a push-on clip fall off of the vent pull handle wire, because I didn't push it on far enough. The AIM doesn't say how to do this, so I didn't push it too far on. It was the last item checked in PV, and it fell off when the handle was pulled, leaving me with 15 minutes to fix it or fail PV. I tore the car apart and fixed it in time, but I've heard lot of stories of wires that fell off after hundreds of miles of vibration in the trailer, light bulbs that burn out when turned on, leaks that just happen in dried-out hoses. On and on, these are not new cars, no matter how good a job we do, they are not the same as when they left St Louis... Mr. Murphy is alive and well, everything that can go wrong...does
It makes PV a challenge...
Mike
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#50
Melting Slicks
The big deal in PV, I think, is little physical law called "entropy", which, in essence, is the tendency for things to fall into disorder. Sure you can build something new right the first time. It'll probably last a while. And you can try, with some luck and partial understanding of what they did in the factory, to re-build it with some similarity to what was done in the assembly plant. The problem is, really, did you put it together correctly, or just close enough that you can't distinguish the difference?
If you didn't do everything right, and if every restored component isn't just as designed by GM, then the chances of entropy taking over and affecting function increase dramatically. A partially snapped connection, an under-torqued bolt, a missing clip, and a thousand other things can cause unexpected functional failures.
In just one example, I had a push-on clip fall off of the vent pull handle wire, because I didn't push it on far enough. The AIM doesn't say how to do this, so I didn't push it too far on. It was the last item checked in PV, and it fell off when the handle was pulled, leaving me with 15 minutes to fix it or fail PV. I tore the car apart and fixed it in time, but I've heard lot of stories of wires that fell off after hundreds of miles of vibration in the trailer, light bulbs that burn out when turned on, leaks that just happen in dried-out hoses. On and on, these are not new cars, no matter how good a job we do, they are not the same as when they left St Louis... Mr. Murphy is alive and well, everything that can go wrong...does
It makes PV a challenge...
Mike
If you didn't do everything right, and if every restored component isn't just as designed by GM, then the chances of entropy taking over and affecting function increase dramatically. A partially snapped connection, an under-torqued bolt, a missing clip, and a thousand other things can cause unexpected functional failures.
In just one example, I had a push-on clip fall off of the vent pull handle wire, because I didn't push it on far enough. The AIM doesn't say how to do this, so I didn't push it too far on. It was the last item checked in PV, and it fell off when the handle was pulled, leaving me with 15 minutes to fix it or fail PV. I tore the car apart and fixed it in time, but I've heard lot of stories of wires that fell off after hundreds of miles of vibration in the trailer, light bulbs that burn out when turned on, leaks that just happen in dried-out hoses. On and on, these are not new cars, no matter how good a job we do, they are not the same as when they left St Louis... Mr. Murphy is alive and well, everything that can go wrong...does
It makes PV a challenge...
Mike
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#51
Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15-'16
Hell. I could pass, and did it every day, a USMC fitness test when I was in. Fifty years later.....not a frigging chance,
#52
OK, as a newbie, help me out here. what is a TL, PV Top Flight, Duntov, bottom flight, in the middle flight and all these things?
Can someone give a hierarchy and a 1-2 sentence description for us newbies? For the record, I don't covet stock cars (although I do appreciate a well built, well restored or well preserved car) so I know I will never chase this type of award, but I am curious as to what this is all about...
Can someone give a hierarchy and a 1-2 sentence description for us newbies? For the record, I don't covet stock cars (although I do appreciate a well built, well restored or well preserved car) so I know I will never chase this type of award, but I am curious as to what this is all about...
#53
Melting Slicks
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OK, as a newbie, help me out here. what is a TL, PV Top Flight, Duntov, bottom flight, in the middle flight and all these things?
Can someone give a hierarchy and a 1-2 sentence description for us newbies? For the record, I don't covet stock cars (although I do appreciate a well built, well restored or well preserved car) so I know I will never chase this type of award, but I am curious as to what this is all about...
Can someone give a hierarchy and a 1-2 sentence description for us newbies? For the record, I don't covet stock cars (although I do appreciate a well built, well restored or well preserved car) so I know I will never chase this type of award, but I am curious as to what this is all about...
Last edited by Vettrocious; 01-09-2019 at 10:01 PM.
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#54
So If I understand you, You can get your car judged for a Normal Flight, 2nd flight, top flight and if you get all those, you can go for a Duntov award, but that is a 3 pack of also requiring you get a High Top Flight, combined with a PV and then get another High Top flight?
How many cars have a Duntov and if you get one, are you required to keep it up?
How many cars have a Duntov and if you get one, are you required to keep it up?
#55
Melting Slicks
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So If I understand you, You can get your car judged for a Normal Flight, 2nd flight, top flight and if you get all those, you can go for a Duntov award, but that is a 3 pack of also requiring you get a High Top Flight, combined with a PV and then get another High Top flight?
How many cars have a Duntov and if you get one, are you required to keep it up?
How many cars have a Duntov and if you get one, are you required to keep it up?
Last edited by Vettrocious; 01-09-2019 at 10:31 PM.
#56
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This may not be the place to ask but several NCRS members and judges frequent here. Can a car be entered in the PV test and flight judging at the same event? PV's are always the first day with the car sitting with the Flight cars for the duration whether they passed or not. Looks like extra revenue for the event if they could "dual enroll".
#58
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I was around in the 50's and 60's and the crap Detroit was putting out then was not that great, a car of that era, considering the quality control in effect then wouldn't even be considered a good daily driver today.
I hear about "the way it left the factory" if that is what everyone is shooting for the bar isn't very high.
Detroit didn't start building quality cars until the Japanese started kicking their asses with nothing to offer other than better products because of better quality control.
Restoring a car to the standard it left the factory isn't a very lofty goal, however restoring one to the standard that some folks perceive it should have left the factory is a different matter all together, especially considering the junk called restoration parts available today, I guess they are built to the quality standards of the 50's and 60's era.
Bill
I hear about "the way it left the factory" if that is what everyone is shooting for the bar isn't very high.
Detroit didn't start building quality cars until the Japanese started kicking their asses with nothing to offer other than better products because of better quality control.
Restoring a car to the standard it left the factory isn't a very lofty goal, however restoring one to the standard that some folks perceive it should have left the factory is a different matter all together, especially considering the junk called restoration parts available today, I guess they are built to the quality standards of the 50's and 60's era.
Bill
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#59
Team Owner
I was around in the 50's and 60's and the crap Detroit was putting out then was not that great, a car of that era, considering the quality control in effect then wouldn't even be considered a good daily driver today.
I hear about "the way it left the factory" if that is what everyone is shooting for the bar isn't very high.
Detroit didn't start building quality cars until the Japanese started kicking their asses with nothing to offer other than better products because of better quality control.
Restoring a car to the standard it left the factory isn't a very lofty goal, however restoring one to the standard that some folks perceive it should have left the factory is a different matter all together, especially considering the junk called restoration parts available today, I guess they are built to the quality standards of the 50's and 60's era.
Bill
I hear about "the way it left the factory" if that is what everyone is shooting for the bar isn't very high.
Detroit didn't start building quality cars until the Japanese started kicking their asses with nothing to offer other than better products because of better quality control.
Restoring a car to the standard it left the factory isn't a very lofty goal, however restoring one to the standard that some folks perceive it should have left the factory is a different matter all together, especially considering the junk called restoration parts available today, I guess they are built to the quality standards of the 50's and 60's era.
Bill
Unlike some paint-by-the-numbers restorers that specialize in Corvettes and agonize over how some hidden bolt is plated, I saw the full range of Detroit's offerings when in the used car biz in the 60s and 70s. Mopars, Fords, Chevys, Ramblers, DeSotos and Studebakers....the mantra was that buyers would be back in the market every few years so making a car to last decades wasn't the point. Cars weren't built by robots and lasers and even then the bean counters ruled...so cost-cutting was still the rule of the day.
Even into the 70s I had a side business repairing the horrible circuitry in radios and early electronic components...Cold solder joints, birdcaged wires, board traces cracked, you-name-it.
Was it Noland Adams that said 70% of the cars that left the factory wouldn't get a Top Flight today ? Or something like that ?
Remember when a car back then was "done" at 50,000-70,000 miles...nobody wanted them because they were considered worn out which started the practice of rolling odometers back.... ?
Some are too young to remember and others have an idealized memory of what the industry was like back then...
Muscle cars were the worst and many used car dealers avoided them....far too many had ragged out motors, blown suspensions and had been hit in all four corners - nobody babied them...
I remember back then when we traded in a Japanese tiny pick up truck (maybe a Datsun) with "4 on the tree". I dogged the snot out of that thing using it as a parts runner and it just wouldn't quit...
We laughed about it; little did we know...
Then the Datsun 240-Z appeared, literally out of nowhere....
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 01-10-2019 at 08:26 AM.
#60
Team Owner
Being mechanically proficient, I perform my own PV's on all of my older classics in the comfort of my own shop. And then I go out and drive the cars. Not to judged events or shows, but to places of interest that I want to go to....like the mountains or the seashore. Good running cars, no stress, great driving experiences, and great destinations. Win-win! None of my cars will win any trophies, but then again, I use them as....cars.
I didn't take my wife and daughter around Sebring at triple digit speeds in a car that had issues; and I R&R'ed three fuel gauges in my 63 just because I didn't like the way the fuel gauge worked. Just replaced my 63 steering box and installed an NOS coupler because the steering was a bit looser than I cared for.
My friends will tell you how **** I am about things operating at their peak...and how hard I drive my cars...
Some are just happy if they can get through a 20-minute test drive to complete a check off list an "open book test" under ideal conditions. Try limping home 25 miles at night on a country road with this:
Here's my PV....
Son-in-law couldn't get out of the car fast enough and told my daughter, "Your Dad is crazy!"
Members wmf62, plasticman and tomsilver60 can attest to how I drive my cars...and how they run.
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 01-10-2019 at 09:37 AM.