Notices
C1 & C2 Corvettes General C1 Corvette & C2 Corvette Discussion, Technical Info, Performance Upgrades, Project Builds, Restorations
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Small block verses big block?

 
Old 03-14-2019, 07:52 PM
  #1  
68hemi
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
68hemi's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2003
Location: Cottonwood AZ
Posts: 3,900
Thanked 492 Times in 384 Posts
Default Small block verses big block?

With the available strokes kits for both of these engine what is the largest CID possible and what is the highest h.p. possible to run on pump gas (91 octane) with single carb, no modern FI, turbo, supercharger or nitrous that will fit under a small block hood in either a C1 or C2?
68hemi is offline  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:49 PM
  #2  
Avispa
CF Senior Member
 
Avispa's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2009
Location: San Antonio Texas
Posts: 1,982
Thanked 114 Times in 102 Posts
Default

Check World Castings. They have at least a 454 SB with 600 HP pump gas. There are bigger SBs but they have tall decks and may not clear a C1 or SB C2 hood. Not sure how well a standard deck BB will fit, but Edelbrock makes a 555 inch and World has a 540 inch, 650+ HP standard deck BB. I'm guessing forget putting a tall deck BB in either place you asked about.
Avispa is offline  
Old 03-14-2019, 09:55 PM
  #3  
GTOguy
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
GTOguy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2015
Location: Fresno California
Posts: 6,626
Thanked 1,018 Times in 809 Posts
Default

A friend just picked up a Skip White 427 sbc that weighs less than the stock 350, puts out 578 HP and 561 TQ on pump gas, and looks like a stocker. Going into his '68 Camaro....impressive.
GTOguy is offline  
Old 03-14-2019, 10:09 PM
  #4  
jim lockwood
CF Senior Member
 
jim lockwood's Avatar
 
Member Since: Feb 2007
Location: northern california
Posts: 6,890
Thanked 498 Times in 366 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by GTOguy View Post
A friend just picked up a Skip White 427 sbc that weighs less than the stock 350, puts out 578 HP and 561 TQ on pump gas, and looks like a stocker. Going into his '68 Camaro....impressive.
Is it an aluminum block?
jim lockwood is offline  
Old 03-15-2019, 10:40 AM
  #5  
reno stallion
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Apr 2013
Location: McCloud CA
Posts: 584
Thanked 79 Times in 61 Posts
Default

I have a 496 BBC stock type 4bolt main block ARP heads Mike Jones cam pump gas 91. Built by Mike Lewis Lewis racing engines. 726hp. Also just built 383 SBC pro max heads Skip White magic cam pump gas 483 hp 498tq



reno stallion is online now  
Old 03-15-2019, 11:29 AM
  #6  
cuisinartvette
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Valencia Ca.
Posts: 67,804
Thanked 1,099 Times in 1,011 Posts
St. Jude Donor '05
Default

383 makes similar torque down low but boy does that BB build from there!

Tell us about the BB combo, nice mill! Dig the Jones pulleys, have a set of those and love em.

If ones looking for a true underdrive system to shed weight, bearings that dont bust at rpm thats what you want, not summit stuff.
bouhgt mine from Richard Childress Racing when they still made em

Last edited by cuisinartvette; 03-15-2019 at 11:31 AM.
cuisinartvette is online now  
Old 03-15-2019, 01:12 PM
  #7  
GearheadJoe
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
GearheadJoe's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2014
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 589
Thanked 138 Times in 113 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by 68hemi View Post
With the available strokes kits for both of these engine what is the largest CID possible and what is the highest h.p. possible to run on pump gas (91 octane) with single carb, no modern FI, turbo, supercharger or nitrous that will fit under a small block hood in either a C1 or C2?
I have looked closely at the options for maximum displacement in a small block form factor. The first change is to move to the nominal 4.125" bore of the 400 small block (some shops bore this to 4.155" to squeeze out a few more cubes). While the 400 small block had a 3.75" stroke, it is possible to stroke it to 4.000" with careful attention to the rod selection. The two potential interference points are between the rod and bottom of the cylinder bores and between the rod and the cam. Using the right rod helps a lot.

The combination of a 4.125" bore and a 4.000" stroke yields a 427 CID small block. Unless you are willing to spend big $$, this is about as far as you can economically build a small block. To achieve even higher displacements in a small block form factor, aftermarket manufacturers such as Dart and World Products offer blocks with one or both of the following changes:

1) A raised cam that increases rod-to-cam clearance
2) A raised deck that allows a longer stroke

With these changes you can get to 454 CID and beyond, but it gets very expensive. The raised cam requires an aftermarket timing gear set that may end up having to be a belt drive. The raised deck means that factory intake manifolds won't bolt on. If you really want more than 427 CID, I think it would be less expensive to start with the big block form factor.

My sense is that the "sweet spot" for cost effectively maxing out the displacement of the small block form factor is about 427 CID. With a 4.125" bore and 4.000" stroke, all of the standard small block parts such as heads, intakes, timing chain, timing cover, and oil pan will bolt right on to the 427 CID short block.
GearheadJoe is offline  
Old 03-15-2019, 01:56 PM
  #8  
cuisinartvette
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Valencia Ca.
Posts: 67,804
Thanked 1,099 Times in 1,011 Posts
St. Jude Donor '05
Default

^^
If one has a 383 and needs a big gain that 400 block offers the solution.
tpi421vette here has a44x ci sbc that makes over 900 lbs tq with some squeeze, stick car too and street driven
Unless one knew what they were looking at couldnt tell it apart from any other sbc

Limiting factor is head selection on 23 deg stuff
cuisinartvette is online now  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:28 PM
  #9  
GTOguy
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
GTOguy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2015
Location: Fresno California
Posts: 6,626
Thanked 1,018 Times in 809 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jim lockwood View Post
Is it an aluminum block?
Yes. Dart.
GTOguy is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to GTOguy For This Useful Post:
jim lockwood (03-15-2019)
Old 03-15-2019, 05:32 PM
  #10  
jim lockwood
CF Senior Member
 
jim lockwood's Avatar
 
Member Since: Feb 2007
Location: northern california
Posts: 6,890
Thanked 498 Times in 366 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by GTOguy View Post
Yes. Dart.
I figured. The car in my avatar has a Donovan block. Very light. Bare block weighs 85 lbs.
jim lockwood is offline  
Old 03-15-2019, 05:59 PM
  #11  
GTOguy
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
GTOguy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2015
Location: Fresno California
Posts: 6,626
Thanked 1,018 Times in 809 Posts
Default

Yes, the Dart block 427 was EXPENSIVE. But my friend always 'goes big'. I would have gone with an iron block 383 or 406 for about 9 grand less than he spent!!! ( I tend to 'go cheap'!)
GTOguy is offline  
Old 03-15-2019, 06:01 PM
  #12  
68hemi
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
68hemi's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2003
Location: Cottonwood AZ
Posts: 3,900
Thanked 492 Times in 384 Posts
Default

Well, I asked this since there are so many threads about BBs in a C1. To me it seems the best option for a C1 is 427/500 h.p. SB. Unless you are going to do something with the rear end/fenders to get more tire for traction I don't think you can use anymore engine on the street.
68hemi is offline  
Old 03-15-2019, 11:32 PM
  #13  
GearheadJoe
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
GearheadJoe's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2014
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 589
Thanked 138 Times in 113 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by 68hemi View Post
Well, I asked this since there are so many threads about BBs in a C1. To me it seems the best option for a C1 is 427/500 h.p. SB. Unless you are going to do something with the rear end/fenders to get more tire for traction I don't think you can use anymore engine on the street.
I agree. I have a 424 HP 383 in my mostly-stock C2, and I think that's about the most that the stock chassis and stock-size tires can reasonably handle. However, I also have a nice 400 block sitting in the garage, and I'm tempted to build it into a budget 427 using some of the things I learned about optimizing block and cam clearance when I built the 383.

For an all-out 427 small block, the Dart SHP block (about $1500) is probably the way to go. However, with some careful attention to rod selection, a used stock 400 block (about $250) will work just as well. In terms of getting the desired clearances, the difference is that the Dart block has solid cast iron in the area where the cylinder bores are notched to clear the rods, while the stock 400 block has a water jacket behind the notches. So, you can grind the Dart block to clear any rod, but the stock 400 block can not be ground as much. This makes rod selection more critical.

For cam clearance, both the stock 400 block and the Dart SHP block are identical. The only difference is that with the large block clearance in the Dart block, for rod selection you can trade off worse block clearance for improved cam clearance. The Callies Ultra XD rod with the canted rod cap is a good example of this tradeoff. However, that same rod is a bad choice for the stock 400 block because you might hit the water jacket by the time you grind enough on the block to clear the Callies rod.

I continue to be tempted to build the stock 400 block I have into a budget 427 for street use. The plan would be to build a "torque monster" with an emphasis on big torque and a power peak around 5500 rpm. What I'm finding with my 383 is that I have few opportunities in street driving for full throttle runs to 6000 rpm, but I have many opportunities to enjoy the torque from 2000 rpm to 5000 rpm. A properly built budget 427 would give me even more torque to play with in the 2000 rpm to 5000 rpm range.

Last edited by GearheadJoe; 03-16-2019 at 02:12 PM. Reason: correct Callies rod to XD
GearheadJoe is offline  
Old 03-16-2019, 11:01 AM
  #14  
reno stallion
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Apr 2013
Location: McCloud CA
Posts: 584
Thanked 79 Times in 61 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by cuisinartvette View Post
383 makes similar torque down low but boy does that BB build from there!

Tell us about the BB combo, nice mill! Dig the Jones pulleys, have a set of those and love em.

If ones looking for a true underdrive system to shed weight, bearings that dont bust at rpm thats what you want, not summit stuff.
bouhgt mine from Richard Childress Racing when they still made em
Here you go. 11.2 to 1 compression 113cc head 24.4cc piston AFR 300cc Vic JR oval port Jones cam 705/680 328/329 278/279-109 Lsa. Stroked stock block 496 bbc
reno stallion is online now  
Old 03-16-2019, 11:49 AM
  #15  
DZAUTO
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: Mustang OK
Posts: 11,125
Thanked 835 Times in 488 Posts
2015 C1 of the Year Finalist
Default

Today, there are MANY, MANY options for both cubes and power with either a SB or BB.
For cars that were only built around a SB (early Vettes, 55-7 Chevys, my 51 Chevy, etc), I prefer to stay as economical as possible and use the KISS principle.
My all time favorite SB is a SB400. It is certainly possible to go to 427 with a SB400, but my choice for an all around engine is 420 (bored and .100in stroke) with a set of good flowing heads.
I REALLY prefer to use heads with "plain, no hole" ends. I have not yet bought any, but I see that alum heads with plain ends are now being offered.
This keeps the budget reasonable, provides plenty of power and is TOOOOOOOOOOO EASY to work on-----------if needed.
DZAUTO is offline  
Old 03-16-2019, 12:00 PM
  #16  
68hemi
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
68hemi's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2003
Location: Cottonwood AZ
Posts: 3,900
Thanked 492 Times in 384 Posts
Default

The other advantage of a SB is the weight.Especially with aluminum heads.
68hemi is offline  
Old 03-16-2019, 12:06 PM
  #17  
GTOguy
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
GTOguy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2015
Location: Fresno California
Posts: 6,626
Thanked 1,018 Times in 809 Posts
Default

Gearhead Joe summed up the essence of a well done stroker small block: ample torque where the car spends 90% of the time operating, at 1500-5000 RPM. When I buzz my 383 up to 6000 rpm, the '61 stock suspension and chassis gets a bit pushed out of shape. (running stock bias ply tires.....main contributor to this issue). That said, it is just SO pleasant to let out the clutch and ease into the throttle and feel that locomotive torque, virtually all the time. I'm more of a small block fan, especially in these cars. The SBC is a more durable engine than the BBC in my experience as well. Lighter, more durable, same power/torque as a comparable bbc. Win-win.
GTOguy is offline  
Old 03-16-2019, 12:23 PM
  #18  
babbah
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
babbah's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,746
Thanked 90 Times in 84 Posts
Default

There is no substitute for cubic inches - I prefer the Real Big Block Engine! There is nothing like it
And for durability, 52 years running strong and never has been rebuilt - They don't build them like they used to!
babbah is offline  
Old 03-16-2019, 01:58 PM
  #19  
68hemi
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
68hemi's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2003
Location: Cottonwood AZ
Posts: 3,900
Thanked 492 Times in 384 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by babbah View Post
There is no substitute for cubic inches - I prefer the Real Big Block Engine! There is nothing like it
And for durability, 52 years running strong and never has been rebuilt - They don't build them like they used to!
Cubic inches are the same regardless if SB or BB. Torque is torque regardless. Unless you just like looking at your fat valve covers and having a car with out of balance weight distribution then by all means enjoy your BB.

Not being negative here as I have owned both BB and SBs.

I have a stealth 383 dual quad engine in my 57 that has not been dynoed but my estimate is about 450 h.p. at the flywheel. I would NEVER have considered a BB in this car.

As I stated earlier, I don’t believe you can really USE more than 500 h.p. on the street without bigger tires that require modifications. You can still have 427 CID 500 h.p. In a lighter SB.

Personally I would get more enjoyment out of a stealth big cube SB that would surprise people.

Last edited by 68hemi; 03-16-2019 at 03:23 PM.
68hemi is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to 68hemi For This Useful Post:
GTOguy (03-16-2019), sidepipe seeker (03-16-2019)
Old 03-16-2019, 02:36 PM
  #20  
babbah
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
babbah's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,746
Thanked 90 Times in 84 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by 68hemi View Post
Cubic inches are the same regardless if SB or BB. Tongue is torque regardless. Unless you just like looking at your fat valve covers and having a car with out of balance weight distribution then by all means enjoy your BB.
Not being negative here as I have owned both BB and SBs.
I have a stealth 383 dual quad engine in my 57 that has not been dynoed but my estimate is about 450 h.p. at the flywheel. I would NEVER have considered a BB in this car.
As I stated earlier, I donít believe you can really USE more than 500 h.p. on the street without bigger tires that require modifications. You can still have 427 CID 500 h.p. In a lighter SB.
Personally I would get more enjoyment out of a stealth big cube SB that would surprise people.
Mine is highly modified and has L88 Aluminum heads, so the engine weight is much lighter than stock.
IMO, there is nothing more awesome looking than a Highly Detailed Tri-Powered BBC
BIG BLOCKS RULE!

And no "Tongue"
babbah is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Sponsored Ads
Vendor Directory

Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: