Replacement Trim Tag?
06-03-2019, 05:43 PM
#1
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Replacement Trim Tag?
I didn't even know that this was a thing. I was looking at a car that I really liked (65 convertible). It pretty much matched what I was looking for. I checked the Trim Tag, Vin Tag, and Engine stamp. Everything looked correct. I asked the owner if the car was all correct drive train and color correct. He was very honest and said that the person he bought it from had the car frame off restored years ago and changed the color from Green/Tan to Red/Black. He has pictures of the restoration. The previous owner changed the tag to match the new colors. Everyone is being forthright about it, but I would like to get some opinions. I wonder how many cars I am looking at the someone has changed the trim tag to match whatever they wanted it to? I don't think I ever would have known if he hadn't told me.
Thanks for the opinions!
Thanks for the opinions!
06-03-2019, 06:13 PM
#2
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You're bound to get some strong opinions on this one.
First, a seller verbally disclosing a "replacement" trim tag that diverges from the original is unique, for certain. I wouldn't touch such a car unless such a claim was put in writing: see "accessory after the fact" if anyone felt "insulted" downstream by such a swapped tag. In a nutshell, you're now 'contaminated' by such knowledge and potentially become part of a fraud chain.
Second, changing trim options is done for a couple of reasons: (1) personal preferences, and (2) to increase the car's value through more desirable trim options, but going to the trouble of changing a trim tag most arguably follows choice #2.
First, a seller verbally disclosing a "replacement" trim tag that diverges from the original is unique, for certain. I wouldn't touch such a car unless such a claim was put in writing: see "accessory after the fact" if anyone felt "insulted" downstream by such a swapped tag. In a nutshell, you're now 'contaminated' by such knowledge and potentially become part of a fraud chain.
Second, changing trim options is done for a couple of reasons: (1) personal preferences, and (2) to increase the car's value through more desirable trim options, but going to the trouble of changing a trim tag most arguably follows choice #2.
Last edited by Easy Rhino; 06-03-2019 at 06:18 PM.
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06-03-2019, 06:17 PM
#3
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It’s fraud and a black eye on the hobby
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06-03-2019, 06:36 PM
#4
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How is it fraud if the seller fully disclosed it ?
There is no intent to misrepresent anything and it was apparently done to the car before he owned it.
And, yes, there are prob a few cars with repro trim tags and dishonest sellers - this doesn't appear to be one of them.
There is no intent to misrepresent anything and it was apparently done to the car before he owned it.
And, yes, there are prob a few cars with repro trim tags and dishonest sellers - this doesn't appear to be one of them.
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06-03-2019, 06:45 PM
#5
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How is it fraud if the seller fully disclosed it ?
There is no intent to misrepresent anything and it was apparently done to the car before he owned it.
And, yes, there are prob a few cars with repro trim tags and dishonest sellers - this doesn't appear to be one of them.
There is no intent to misrepresent anything and it was apparently done to the car before he owned it.
And, yes, there are prob a few cars with repro trim tags and dishonest sellers - this doesn't appear to be one of them.
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06-03-2019, 06:46 PM
#6
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I looked into getting a replacement trim tag years ago for a GTO I had (tag was missing but I had all the original documented codes) and the tag company wanted verification of my original vehicle trim codes in order to reproduce a tag, which I thought was prudent. They did NOT offer tags with incorrect/changed color combos, etc. I wonder what tag company produces non-original combo tags? And yes, the only purpose of getting one would be to deceive whomever was looking at the car. I changed the colors of my '67 GTO from gold/gold to Burgundy/ivory, but the trim tag still says gold/gold, and always will.
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06-03-2019, 07:30 PM
#7
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Once the someone else gets it and forgets it’s fake and passes it on. If the seller was honest he wound stamp fake or something on the trim tag. Or just remove it and put the original back on. The only real purpose this tag has is to tell people what the original color was and depending color it will rase the value
First of all you can not cry fraud about some thing that has not yet happened.
A trim tag is not a legal identifier of an automobile only the V.I.N. tag and matching title are. Fraud in this case would be a civil action for a buyer to pursue. However people that sell old classic cars today if they are smart will create a bill of sale that will read "This car is sold AS-IS with no warranty as to mechanical condition. Furthermore let it be known to the buyer and any other future buyer that I did not buy this car new and therefore am not responsible for any changes from original the may or may not have occurred since this car was new." Have it signed by the buyer and keep it in case something ever comes up. Think about it, if you don't you could be involved in a civil action that you could be found financially liable for that was done years before you ever saw the car several owners back. These cars are a minimum of 52 years old and many thing could have been changed that you have no knowledge of.
Last edited by 68hemi; 06-03-2019 at 07:38 PM.
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06-03-2019, 07:47 PM
#8
Le Mans Master
My opinion
I don't believe the NCRS will judge a car with a replacement trim tag on it. And yes, they can usually tell.
If you really like this car and want to buy it, ask for the original trim tag to go with it. You don't have to install it. However, you can then offer it to the next owner so he knows what he's buying. If the current owner doesn't still have the original trim tag, I'd pass on buying the car myself.
If you really like this car and want to buy it, ask for the original trim tag to go with it. You don't have to install it. However, you can then offer it to the next owner so he knows what he's buying. If the current owner doesn't still have the original trim tag, I'd pass on buying the car myself.
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06-03-2019, 08:27 PM
#9
Just another Corvette guy
Driving down the road at 50 miles an hour, nobody can see the trim tag. I would never sweat over stuff like this. If restamping the engine block is considered a realistic part of the restoration process, why wouldn't replacing the trim tag to match the car's current manifestation also be considered just another part of that process? WAY too much emphasis is being placed on this type of numbers thing. 25 years from now, nobody will care. If you like the car buy it.
Flame away.
Flame away.
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06-03-2019, 08:31 PM
#10
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Wow, this is an emotional topic. I didnt know if this was something that occurred on a regular basis or not. I certainly didnt feel misled or that the car was misrepresented. All that being said, I don't think I want to deal with this when I sell it.
Thanks to all of you for your feedback!!!!
If someone has a Red/Black, White/Black, Goldwood/Black, or maybe Black/Black car with a 327 that came from the factory like that, I would be interested.
Thanks to all of you for your feedback!!!!
If someone has a Red/Black, White/Black, Goldwood/Black, or maybe Black/Black car with a 327 that came from the factory like that, I would be interested.
06-03-2019, 08:40 PM
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Driving down the road at 50 miles an hour, nobody can see the trim tag. I would never sweat over stuff like this. If restamping the engine block is considered a realistic part of the restoration process, why wouldn't replacing the trim tag to match the car's current manifestation also be considered just another part of that process? WAY too much emphasis is being placed on this type of numbers thing. 25 years from now, nobody will care. If you like the car buy it.
Flame away.
Flame away.
The difference in your comments are that a re-stamped or "restoration engine is that you are re-creating something that was not really any different than replacing an old worn or broken OEM part with a reproduction part verses replacing an original trim tag that was placed there at the factory new with one that reflects a car that has been painted a color different from the original color and matching the tag to the wrong color to fool people into thinking IT is the original color. Making it a lie in print on the new tag. The definition of restoration is to restore to as original new condition.
Last edited by 68hemi; 06-03-2019 at 08:42 PM.
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06-03-2019, 09:10 PM
#13
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The only salient point here is the potential for the opportunity to attempt to defraud, nothing more. Some people cannot pass up the opportunity to pocket some extra dollars at someone else's expense.
YMMV
It's not like we've never heard of fraud in high value collectables before guys. It doesn't necessarily mean that this seller - who disclosed the tag - is attempting fraud; however, subsequent sellers, including innocent sellers, for example an estate sale, could inadvertently defraud a downstream buyer. Not every buyer out there would even suspect, let alone know how to check for, a replacement trim tag.
What if next time you went to look at your trim tag on your C2, you 'noticed' that the trim tag wasn't correct?
YMMV
It's not like we've never heard of fraud in high value collectables before guys. It doesn't necessarily mean that this seller - who disclosed the tag - is attempting fraud; however, subsequent sellers, including innocent sellers, for example an estate sale, could inadvertently defraud a downstream buyer. Not every buyer out there would even suspect, let alone know how to check for, a replacement trim tag.
What if next time you went to look at your trim tag on your C2, you 'noticed' that the trim tag wasn't correct?
06-03-2019, 09:53 PM
#14
Just another Corvette guy
That is a very good point ER.
I wonder how many Corvette owners, (if they suddenly discovered a questionable trim tag on their baby) would broacast that information publicly on a forum like this one?
I wonder how many Corvette owners, (if they suddenly discovered a questionable trim tag on their baby) would broacast that information publicly on a forum like this one?
06-03-2019, 10:12 PM
#15
Safety Car
rusty cars do sell and they are devalued accordingly,
NOM cars do sell and they are devalued accordingly,
cars with wrong, missing, incorrect, replacement trim tags do sell and should be devalued accordingly.
as I always say, the secret is to buy in at the right price so that when it comes time to sell, you can easily find a buyer. if you drop the price enough, you will find a buyer.
not being able to sell a car means that you paid too much for it in the first place.
I would not hesitate to buy into a rusty, NOM, fake trim tag car if it was priced right.
NOM cars do sell and they are devalued accordingly,
cars with wrong, missing, incorrect, replacement trim tags do sell and should be devalued accordingly.
as I always say, the secret is to buy in at the right price so that when it comes time to sell, you can easily find a buyer. if you drop the price enough, you will find a buyer.
not being able to sell a car means that you paid too much for it in the first place.
I would not hesitate to buy into a rusty, NOM, fake trim tag car if it was priced right.
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06-04-2019, 12:14 AM
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I didn't even know that this was a thing. I was looking at a car that I really liked (65 convertible). It pretty much matched what I was looking for. I checked the Trim Tag, Vin Tag, and Engine stamp. Everything looked correct. I asked the owner if the car was all correct drive train and color correct. He was very honest and said that the person he bought it from had the car frame off restored years ago and changed the color from Green/Tan to Red/Black. He has pictures of the restoration. The previous owner changed the tag to match the new colors. Everyone is being forthright about it, but I would like to get some opinions. I wonder how many cars I am looking at the someone has changed the trim tag to match whatever they wanted it to? I don't think I ever would have known if he hadn't told me.
Thanks for the opinions!
Thanks for the opinions!
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vdavenp802 (06-04-2019)
06-04-2019, 12:20 AM
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Driving down the road at 50 miles an hour, nobody can see the trim tag. I would never sweat over stuff like this. If restamping the engine block is considered a realistic part of the restoration process, why wouldn't replacing the trim tag to match the car's current manifestation also be considered just another part of that process? WAY too much emphasis is being placed on this type of numbers thing. 25 years from now, nobody will care. If you like the car buy it.
Flame away.
Flame away.
That being reality, the key is to not pay original prices for color changes or NOM. It’s a pretty simple concept and shouldn’t be all that emotional. If you like red, pay color change price for color change red... pay original price for original red.
People run into problems when they lazily “don’t care” about the realities of the market, yet the rest of the world does at resale time.
06-04-2019, 11:43 AM
#18
Race Director
The difference in your comments are that a re-stamped or "restoration engine is that you are re-creating something that was not really any different than replacing an old worn or broken OEM part with a reproduction part verses replacing an original trim tag that was placed there at the factory new with one that reflects a car that has been painted a color different from the original color and matching the tag to the wrong color to fool people into thinking IT is the original color. Making it a lie in print on the new tag. The definition of restoration is to restore to as original new condition.
Doug
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06-04-2019, 11:53 AM
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The only salient point here is the potential for the opportunity to attempt to defraud, nothing more. Some people cannot pass up the opportunity to pocket some extra dollars at someone else's expense.
YMMV
It's not like we've never heard of fraud in high value collectables before guys. It doesn't necessarily mean that this seller - who disclosed the tag - is attempting fraud; however, subsequent sellers, including innocent sellers, for example an estate sale, could inadvertently defraud a downstream buyer. Not every buyer out there would even suspect, let alone know how to check for, a replacement trim tag.
What if next time you went to look at your trim tag on your C2, you 'noticed' that the trim tag wasn't correct?
YMMV
It's not like we've never heard of fraud in high value collectables before guys. It doesn't necessarily mean that this seller - who disclosed the tag - is attempting fraud; however, subsequent sellers, including innocent sellers, for example an estate sale, could inadvertently defraud a downstream buyer. Not every buyer out there would even suspect, let alone know how to check for, a replacement trim tag.
What if next time you went to look at your trim tag on your C2, you 'noticed' that the trim tag wasn't correct?
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06-04-2019, 01:00 PM
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I blame NCRS in the Corvette world for helping this along. Back when I first joined in the mid 70s and the judging guide was the size of a comic book it was cut and dried you either had the original engine or you didn't. Somewhere along the way they started to assign point values to the engine in such a way that if you have the correct casting number and date for the car's build time and you do well in all the other catagories you can obtain a Top Flight. To me that makes no sense and is a slap in the face of other Top Flight winners with the "born with" engine. Furthermore, if you are honest with NCRS that you have a "restoration engine" You will be docked points for it even if it was not detected by them previously. Therefore an encouragement to lie.
Below are some things I have saved from other posts both here and on the NCRS site on this subject. It doesn't take much reading to determine this is a heated topic with no real resolution. Until there is a true Webster's definition regarding "matching numbers" the only thing I can recommend is that for this subject if it is important to you regarding the status of a car's engine is to ask if the seller can guarantee it has it's "born with" engine. How many people will be willing to stick their necks out to say "yes" unless they bought it new? Hence, my earlier comments about adding the warranty statement to a bill of sale.
Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction
Originally Posted by Roy Sinor (2608) 
I did not respond to this thread to start a discussion on definitions which do net exist I simply have stated facts. I personally think the judge got it correct, numbers matching has no definition it was created by the unscrupulous to lead the unknowing, by implying something that was a way to deceive. The judge has solved that problem and when it gets challenged I suspect it will be upheld in a federal court that will make it law.
I understand that. However, I think this is a prime time for yourself or others to enter into this discussion as it effect not only NCRS but the entire hobby.
It can be argued in MANY different ways and that is proved out when you simply Goggle "matching numbers definition."
Here are a couple of quotes copy and pasted from just one of several links when you do the above search from:
"what happens when “matching” numbers really aren’t. The deceptive practice of re-stamping engine parts with the correct “matching numbers” has been around for a long time. This is usually done to enhance the value of a collector car. A seller that gets caught doing this, and ends up in court, will usually offer the excuse that “I said it was matching numbers, and it is. I never said it was the original engine.” Many advertisements will list a car a “matching numbers” but then go on to indicate that it has a “restoration block.” It’s up to you to know that this simply means that the engine block has been re-stamped to include the correct numbers for that particular car."
"When the term “matching numbers” is used properly, in a manner that is clearly understood as it pertains to an individual car, it can be used to positively quantify the originality of that particular car. When used improperly, it means nothing at all."
I urge everyone here to read the different link within THIS link:
https://www.google.com/search?source...30.a8TGb6yLmUE
Not much help when you add Webster's to the search as seen in this link:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=A35...30.ZDmmY8DHq4I
Review and let the discussion begin.
I think most will agree that since the term was coined it has become a can of worms but now that it exists I think the HOBBY needs to establish a true definition and a correct term to indicate what a true definition of what an ORIGINAL engine can be defined with. Nothing new as forgeries have existed since the beginning of time of valued items. I don't know how much research the above subject judge did before rendering a judgment on the subject but as you read some of the above links you will see there is conflicting opinions of other law suit cases but of course there are always other extenuating circumstances.
POSTED ORIGINALLY BY JOHN Z
Although some people see a car with a "CE" block as having reduced resale value, NCRS judging has recognized the stamp-pad issue in the scoring system for the engine block - of the 613 total points allocated to the engine block (out of 4500 for the whole car), 525 are for the casting number and casting date, and only 88 are assigned to the stamp pad (25 for the engine plant stamp, 25 for the assembly plant VIN derivative, and 38 for pad appearance and broach marks). If you have an acceptable casting number and date and a "blank pad", you can still Top Flight, as you can lose 270 points on the car and still make it, and only 88 are assigned to the stamp pad.