Viet Nam Vett

I would love to have a bolt in 5 speed tranny for my BG trip. I was looking at some Archived threads from August where Auto Gear was comming out with a 5 speed bolt in Muncie type OD tranny. I did email them a short while ago and I am waiting for a response.

Has any body seen or heard anything?? That seems to be the only correct fit tranny around. Don't feel like hacking up the car to make one fit.... :smash:

Crazyhorse

When I emailed them back in August they were shooting for the end of 2003
for availability.

Viet Nam Vett

Bummer....... I'm surprised no one else has come out with one. I wonder how many guys would switch over to one. Seems like a big enough market.

There's nothing else out their except overdrive units that cost in excess of $2700.00.. :banghead:

396 RAT

I too am waiting for information on it.
Would really like a .73 5th, with everything else as is.
4.11 w close ratio.
Do you recall the ratio in 5th on this kit?
I converted a 71 2002 to a 325i 5 speed. Lots of work,
but really came out nice. Ratio came out the same 1 thru 4
with a nice overdrive in 5th. :auto:
I wonder if its gonna be as strong as the factory set up?
$2700.00? I dont recall it being that much? :sad:
Keep up posted! :cheers:


[Modified by 396 RAT, 6:53 PM 1/15/2003]

Viet Nam Vett

Heh Rat,
I received an email from them to day, and they said it's in final stages of completion. However, they stated, their looking at spring 2004. In the email they said "4" speed. I emailed them back and asked for a conformation on weather or not it was a typo...IE "5" speed. I'll keep you posted. :cheers:

Crazyhorse

From another email I received in August......


We expect to offer a 2.20 first and a ~.80 overdrive
-- whether we can offer a 2.56 first with a comparable overdrive has not
been sorted out. Both will be M22 based, with modified gear data for
the overdrive gearset. All will be 26 spline inputs with 32 spline
outputs. Target price, with shifter, is US$2400, but this is far from
solid at this stage.


:thumbs:

Subfixer

Gear Vendors offers a bolt on, electrically controlled OD unit for Muncie M21/22. Replaces the tail shaft. Price is advertized @ $2395.00. I don't think this will fit an M20. Will require a driveshaft shortening, but the trans mount should not need altering. No mods to the shifter required.

Not the best solution, but it would keep the interior stock looking and no body hacking would be required. If nothing else comes along, this will probably be on my list for next winter.

Forgot to mention, the OD is 0.78:1

Web address: http://www.gearvendors.com/index.html


[Modified by Subfixer, 4:20 PM 1/16/2003]


[Modified by Subfixer, 4:24 PM 1/16/2003]

TheOman

Hello SubFixer!

How's things up there in the Nutmeg State? Man I just gotta relocate back home before I go nuts...(more nuts?) in this Atlanta traffic.

Fixing many subs lately?

Wow $2400 is a piece of change considering you end up committed to all the pieces that are up forward of the tailshaft in the old Muncie. I like the idea but the price tag is a little rough. If you need anything expensive in the front end of the trans you can drop >$3K without much effort. The good news is that most of the Muncie stuff is being remanufactured now and quality does not seem to be an issue as it was when some of those offshore re-pop gears first appeared.

There is a guy named Wally on the Chevelle forum (www.chevelles.com) who moderates the "Transmission" section of the tech forum. He builds Muncies and sells parts. Knows his stuff based on answers I have seen that he has put in that forum. If you go ahead with the gear vendors and find you need parts check him out I think he is a good source.

For those who read this I should have asked....Anybody got a 2:73 or 3:08 center section that will bolt into a 66 small block car? Will consider trades of various parts I have available and cash or cash only. Will ONLY consider factory set up gears, not interested in anything done by the "local gear guy". Had enough fun with that stuff already. Factory set up take outs only for me from now on.


[Modified by TheOman, 11:49 AM 1/16/2003]

INMYBLOOD

I copied this right from Auto Gear's web page. When someone first mentiioned it a while ago I had visited their web page. I think they just can make it a 4 speed OD tranny. I thought that a doug nash tranny will fit right in a C1 or C2 :confused: I would love the best of both worlds and have tasted it in our Camaro 3.73 with a 6 speed, it goes and then can cruise. With the vette I never really go more than a few hours from home so I'll live with the 3.70 or just swap it out for a road gear as opposed to spending a few K and messing with the car. I just don't have the time.

Here's what on there page.

"Muncie Overdrives?

A number of customers have asked whether we can build Muncie "in case" overdrive gearsets like those they have seen in Ford Top-Loaders and Chrysler A833s. While the existing case limits our ratio opportunities, we can build a gearset with approximately the following ratios: 2.20/1.35/1.00/0.87.

If there is interest in this set (a new cluster, new 2nd and new 3rd at about $500) we'll go ahead. Let us know."

TheOman

" I thought that a doug nash tranny will fit right in a C1 or C2 I would love the best of both worlds"

Don't know about C-1's but the 5 Speed bolts right into C-2's It is a stinker to get in there but it does go in with no cutting of the floor or the console or the crossmember. The 6 Speed is supposed to fit into C-2's but after doing a 5 Speed I have my boubts.

Read ML67 documentation which I referenced earlier. Ya gotta have lower (numeric) gears than 336 or your not gonna get all the benefit. 3:36 on the street is about it. 3:55 with the 3:27 low in the Nash / Richmond is gonna be WAY to shrt on the street. It would be like a truck transmission as far as first gear multiplication.

Subfixer

Hey Oman, It's mighty cold up here this week. Highs in the upper 20's.. brrrr. Yes, I've been fixing MANY subs up here. They all came back for the holidays and have been keeping us real busy.
Thanks for the info on Muncie parts. Yeah, the price is a little steep for the OD unit. I figure I'll pick up an M21, rebuild it, add the OD unit and get a shorter driveshaft made. I'd like to keep the old original M20 in storage with the original engine and driveshaft. I'll probably never restore the car to original, but if I ever decide to sell in the future, all the original stuff will be available for the next owner. Even though I have the original 3.36's, I think the OD will help on long trips. This winter/spring is full of projects on the car. Have to replace the clutch, upgrade the NOM 300 hp to an L79 clone, replace the oil pan, replace the radiator and rebuild both front and rear suspensions. I figure I may be done around July.

Crazyhorse

That's something different. I specifically asked them if they are working on a five speed and here was his reply....

Yes, we are working on a five-speed Muncie derivative, one of the criteria
being that the installation footprint must be the same as the Muncie/T10
so that it will fit existing Corvette bodies

USAZR1

How much work would be involved to install a Tremec TKO 5spd? Price on one of those is around $1900 and they are supposed to be a relatively easy swap in a Chevelle/El Camino with factory 4spd.

TheOman

Like you I have all the original stuff: the engine, trans, radiator, master cyl and God only knows what else sitting around on the floor. Almost positive I will never ever use it but sure as shootin if I sell something I will think otherwise about it AFTERWARDS. So the basement garage contiues to fill up, Mrs Oman gets more annoyed and the beat goes on.

Do the L-79 upgrade. I loved mine, wish I had it back even though it was not in a Vette. I bought a new crate engine in June of 1967 for, are you sittin down, $525 from Zele (pronounced Zail) Chevrolet in Torrington. It included everyting in between the water pump and the bellhsg and everything in between the intake and the oil pan. Spark plugs, valve covers and distrib, exh. manifolds everything!!!! Ahhhh those were the days. Really.... for my money the best all around performer of the SB generation. Even if you don't go for the pistons to get to 11:00 to one the cam alone will really wake up your motor. Gotta have the manifold and that funky thermostat housing for eye appeal and visual "correctness" also. There is a long thread about L-79s with a lot of data, some from yours truly, about the L-79. Be sure you go for new valve springs...a necessity for 6000 RPM shifting.

I am sure the OD will help the trip situation, better mileage, less wear on the engine....just a more enjoyable driver. I drove my LS6 powered 72 Monte Carlo from Glastonbury down to Atlanta. One 16 hour day with 3:36 gears, 1075 miles: not terrible but it would have been easier with say 3:08s or 2:73s. I have a ready to go 3:08 12 bolt for the Monte in the basement with all the other stuff. Likely gonna load the 3:08s in soon since it is just an R & R of the 3rd member. Looking for a 3:08 posi center section for the Vette as I mentioned above. Any ideas / sources ????

Well if it is 20 down by the shore it must be REALLY cold up in Litchfiled where I come from originally. We almost NEVER get to 20 down here in Atlanta but when it is in the 30's the humidity is so high [even on the "dry" days] that it chills ya to the bone.

Subfixer

About 9 degrees in Litchfield this morning..... I did read the entire thread on the L79 and I think that's how I will proceed. I was going to go with a more aggressive cam, But I think the L79 build is just what I'm looking for. If I win the lottery, maybe I'll go with a higher gear set also (if I get the OD). Thinking 3.73 or 4.11. We'll see..

65ZR1

The Richmond 5 speed does fit into the C1's with no cutting etc. I have one in my 58 with a 3:08 posi. Works great and I love it! Only thing I had to do was make a simple crossmember that bolts in place of the original and replace the yolk. It is a very tight fit on the shifter but it will go. You mentioned 2:73 gears. Are these available for the C1's? I would switch in a second if they were. :D

Viking427

I guess we should have started another "Overdrive" thread but who knows where these things go. I'll comment on the other "Autogear" thread here also; With proposed gear ratios of 2:20/1.35/1.00/0.87, Autogear's upcoming "4sp overdrive" appears to be simply a "wide ratio" 4 sp, not a real OD solution (final gear drop of only 13%). You'd be better & cheaper served with an OEM wide ratio offering from GM (see chart below). The std Muncie/BW 4 sp main case is not large enough to accomodate a 5th gear, so if Autogear does develop a 5 sp trans, they'll have to do as Richmond did & put the 5th gear in the tailhousing with the reverse gear, making the entire trans longer (creating same install issues as Richmond 5 & 6 sp, Gearvendors add-on OD, and possibly Tremec).

I agree, if the Richmond 5 sp is a @#$! to fanagle into a C1/C2, I can only imagine what it took to cram the ROD 6 sp in there without a saw and torch...hats off to you MassVette. Now that we've determined that NO cutting whatsover is needed to install the Richmond 5 sp or 6sp (into a C2), my ? for those of you who did it; does either installation require the motor/bellhousing to be removed ? (motor mount bolts pulled & engine pushed forward) to get them in there. I pose the same ? for the Tremec TKO but I don't believe anyones come forward that has actually installed one in a C1/C2 yet.

Keeping in mind my OD needs (26" tire, 1800-2200 rpm cruise @ 70+ mph) IMO the Tremec TKO appears to be the best option so far with 3.08-3.36 rears. Good ratios & torque rating, smooth shifting, reasonable install (central shifter..needs modified offset shift handle to avoid cutting floor/console), and reasonable cost. depending on how many gears you desire, 2nd would be Richmond 5 sp or BW ST10 Z-ratio (ultra-wide) 4 sp w/ 2.56-2.73 rears. Richmond 6 sp (ROD) is a great option and covers everyones needs if the install doesn't cause suicide and you like/need 6 forward gears. BW T56 has a nice spread on gear ratios too, but I've read its the largest of the bunch and a nightmare to install into a C2 (mod heaven).

RATIOS
4 Speed manual
M20 (1963-65)> 2.56/1.91/1.48/1.00
M20 (1966-74)> 2.52/1.88/1.46/1.00
M21/M22 (all)> 2.20/1.64/1.27/1.00
BW Super T10 (S-code)> 2.43/1.61/1.23/1.00
BW Super T10 (P-code)> 2.43/1.76/1.47/1.00
BW Super T10 (X-code)> 2.64/1.60/1.22/1.00
BW Super T10 (W-code)> 2.64/1.75/1.34/1.00
BW Super T10 (Y-code)> 2.88/1.74/1.33/1.00
BW Super T10 (U-code)> 2.88/1.91/1.33/1.00
BW Super T10 (Z-code)> 3.42/2.28/1.46/1.00
Saginaw (all)> 2.20/1.64/1.47/1.00

5 speed manual
Tremec 3550/TKO> 3.27/1.98/1.34/1.00/0.68
Tremec 3550/TKO> 3.18/2.06/1.39/1.00/0.65
Richmond 5 sp(Doug Nash)> 3.27/2.13/1.57/1.23/1.00
BW T5 (F-body, 88-92)> 3.35/1.99/1.33/1.00/0.68 (under 400 ft-lbs)

6 speed manual
Borg Warner T56> 2.66/1.78/1.30/1.00/0.74/0.50
Borg Warner T56> 3.36/2.07/1.35/1.00/0.84/0.62
Borg Warner T56> 2.97/1.94/1.35/1.00/0.84/0.62
Borg Warner T56> 2.97/2.07/1.43/1.00/0.80/0.62
Richmond ROD (a)> 3.27/2.13/1.57/1.23/1.00/0.78
Richmond ROD (b)> 3.01/1.88/1.46/1.19/1.00/0.62
Richmond ROD (c)> 4.06/2.22/1.57/1.23/1.09/0.81 (optional 0.88)
ZF > 2.68/1.80/1.29/1.00/0.75/0.50

Automatic
200-4R> 2.74/1.57/1.00/0.67
700-4R> 3.06/1.63/1.00/0.70
4L60E> 3.06/1.63/1.00/0.70
4L80E> 2.48/1.48/1.00/0.75

Some good background reading; http://www.angelfire.com/fl/procrastination/rear.html http://www.richmondgear.com/catalogpdf/catpg19.pdf http://www.gearzone.net/ratios.html http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English...ts/TR-3550.asp

TheOman

"if Autogear does develop a 5 sp trans, they'll have to do as Richmond did & put the 5th gear in the tailhousing with the reverse gear, making the entire trans longer (creating same install issues as Richmond ........'

Really?

A couple of clarifications here. The Richmond 5 Speed does not have reverse and 5th in the tailshaft. The only gears in the tailshaft on the 5 Speed are the gears that drive the speedo. Reverse and 5th in the 5 Speed are in the very front of the gear cluster closest to the bellhousing inside the main case where all the drive gears are located.

As to the "entire trans being longer". Again not so with the 5 Speed. The length from the bellhousing flange to the end of the tail shaft is almost exactly the same...within less than 1/2 inch I think as the Muncie. I used my stock drive shaft with no modifications. You must however use the from yoke from a Super T-10 due to the dia of the Richmond 5 Speed output shaft. The distance from the bellhousing to the mounting bolts that attach the Richmond to the bolt in trans ount pad that attaches to the crossmember is 2.5 inches longer than a Muncie. Just for the record the case on the 5 Speed clears the transmission tunnel with room to spare on the top and on the sides. You can even leave the thermal blanket inside the underside of the tunnel.

Nash OEM'ed an overdrive for the Vettte in the 80's. It was an add on box that bolted onto the back of a T-10. The Richmond 5 Speed is NOT a derrivative of the 4 Speed T-10 nore is it a derrivative of the OD OEM T-10 that Chevy marketed as the "4+3". People confuse these and a lot of misinformation gets propigated as a result.

I even read things like "I think the Nash is sorta like the Richmond 5 Speed' Well yeah it is sorta like the 5 Speed. Sorta EXACTLY like the Street 5 Speed cause they are the same thing. There was also a Nash RACING only 5 Speed that had straight cut gears in all forward speeds. I don't know if Richmond still makes that version likely not based on the success of G-Force and other full race modifiers of the Richmond Street 5 Speed.

Now as to removal of the Richmond from a Vette. Assume that you have not made a removable crossmember. According to sources I have talked to, I have not had to do this yet and I hope I never do have to do it, this is how you pull out the 5 Speed w/o moving the motor off the mounts. You pull the driveshaft and remove the parking brake pulley from the rear of the crossmember. Then you remove the tailhousing from the 5 Speed. You slip it out THRU the crossmember hole where the driveshaft usually is. I gotta believe this is a close fit but I have talked to guys who say they have done it. Removal of the housing from the main case is a walk in the park cause there is nothing in the tail housing except the speedo gear. Unbolt the transmission from the bellousing. Slide the trans back toward the rear of the car with the output shaft still inside the crossmember. Once the input shaft clears the bellhousing drop the input shaft down toward the floor and slide the trans forward.

The ugly part of this is reinstalling the tail housing onto the main case once the trans is reinstalled. The Richmond 5 Speed does not use gaskets on the tail housing. You use silicone. I have put these things together several times and never had a leak if that is what your thinking. Putting that tail shaft onto the main case seems like a real chore but again folks tell me it can be done.

"I pose the same ? for the Tremec TKO but I don't believe anyones come forward that has actually installed one in a C1/C2 yet"

I like the concept of an internal rail shifter. It likely does shift smoother and a lot of people are really in love with the idea of Tremecs in C1 and C2 cars. I have never seen anyone actually do it. If someone has actually done it, not had it done by their mechanic please step forward and let us see your wrecked knuckles. I can show ya mine from the Richmond. Please tell us how you accomplished the swap! What ae the issues and what parts are needed? I also wanna know who makes a Tremec shifter that fits thru the OEM Midyear hole in the console. The beauty of the Tremec is the rail shifter but how do you offset a Treemec shifter to the side of the mainshaft center line to allow it to go thru the stock console? Might not be important to some people but I hear alot about this custom shifter stuff and I am curious. Well yeah it might be all ya need but who makes it? If such a shifter is just vapor ware then you are faced with hackin up the console or riggin something altogether different.

[Modified by TheOman, 2:29 PM 1/17/2003]


[Modified by TheOman, 2:37 PM 1/17/2003]

Viking427

"they'll have to do as Richmond did & put the 5th gear in the tailhousing with the reverse gear"

...Sorry Oman, I was thinking of the ROD 6 sp where they made room in the main case by moving the reverse gear to the tailhousing :bb
For anyone considering either of the Richmonds, I just noticed they've redone their webpage and now have "tech docs" under the support menu that outline installation for various cars...one of them being 63-82 Corvettes :thumbs:

As for centered shifter handle mods required. I've only come across articles documenting Mustang, F-body & A-body TKO installs so far. These cars not only have different tunnel design/clearances, but also have the luxury of "raised" consoles where they can effectivly hide any cutting, welding, bending neccessary to get an OEM appearence ABOVE the tunnel and inside the console itself (or under a large shift boot). With C1/C2 consoles mounted directly to the tunnel, theres zero headroom to accomplish necessary mods above the tunnel thereby relying on sufficient clearence BELOW the tunnel. It appears this may require dropping the trans down a couple inches for a C1/C2 install (unless there IS in fact plenty of clearence above trans as you made reference to in your Richmond install). Having said that, the TKO shifters have been "rigged" in all cases into the correct position by either heating & bending both the shifter stem and handle or by cutting & rewelding them to obtain proper geometry. Interesting side note is the Tremec has 3 shift locations to choose from, with the rearmost location putting the shift handle a little too far to the rear (1.5-2") but someone (again in one of the myriad of articles) mentioned reversing the shifter in this rearmost position thereby correcting the shifters fore/aft location (center position still an issue).

According to this link; http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/new_products_.html
"Mike Forte is designing and building a high quality shifter for the 3550 5sp transmissions specifically for GM console applications. You will have 2 choices, one that keeps the shifter bar centered in the console for post ‘68 cars, and one that moves the shifter bar to the left 2” for the ‘68 and older cars! This shifter will also allow the 5sp to work in the early Corvettes without tunnel modifications! :hurray:
...I guess we'll see, its all speculation until someone actually executes a C1/C2 install.


[Modified by Viking427, 4:18 PM 1/17/2003]

TheOman

" It appears this may require dropping the trans down a couple inches for a C1/C2 install (unless there IS in fact plenty of clearence above trans as you made reference to in your Richmond install).

I hope that "dropping the trans down a couple of inches is not the solution. All sorts of things are effected by dropping the rear of the transmission. Driveshart angle, clutch linkage, fan to shroud clearance, exhaust pipes. If dropping the transmission down "a couple of inches" it is gonna be a NIGHTMARE.

Let me clarify something. There is room for the Richmond 5 Speed case under the tunnel. The Hurst shifter however ends up with the guts of the shifter poking into the space above the floor when you use the stock mounting plate provoded by Hurst. The modification I came up with which ML67 so nicely documented has the effect of lowering the shifter mechanism 1.5 inches closer to the road. The result is a shifter that has only the lever itself protruding up beyond the floor pan in a mid year.

As to your comment about the shifter..................."I guess we'll see, its all speculation until someone actually executes a C1/C2 install." You got that right. Until that shifter unit is installed in a car all it is is "Futureware" as they say in the computer business. My experience has been that "Futureware" all too often turns into "Vaporware" rather than into Hardware!!!

[Modified by TheOman, 9:46 AM 1/18/2003]


[Modified by TheOman, 9:50 AM 1/18/2003]