Value of '57 vin tag/title?
01-13-2005, 08:36 PM
#21
Le Mans Master
I'm not aware of any state in which it is legal to sell a "bare" title and factory VIN tag detached from a car. I'm sure eBay will continue to boot these auctions as fast as they find them.
It's also illegal to use a bare title and VIN tag to register a different vehicle. If you custom build a car from scratch or from many different (untitled) pieces, then you should apply for a state issued VIN and builder's title.
You may not like it because it hurts the value of your creation when you sell it. But, it is the law.
It's also illegal to use a bare title and VIN tag to register a different vehicle. If you custom build a car from scratch or from many different (untitled) pieces, then you should apply for a state issued VIN and builder's title.
You may not like it because it hurts the value of your creation when you sell it. But, it is the law.
01-13-2005, 09:58 PM
#22
Safety Car
Jerry,
The question is what constitutes a car? Does an original cowl and VIN constitute the a car? Does the VIN tag only constitute a car? Can you replace every part on a car but the VIN tag and be restoring a car?
My contention is, that if you have a clean title and VIN tag, and you have a pile of parts that are not stolen, then I have no problem putting that VIN on those parts! This is done every day when cars have rusted out birdcages. A new body is put in place, and the original tag is attached to the salvage body! Are you telling me that if you were to replace the body on a car due to a rotted birdcage, that you would then apply for a homebuilt title for that car? Frames are changed out every day,as are engine and transmissions, suspensions, and every other part of the car, and nobody wrings their hands, but mention a VIN tag and everybody goes off the deep end! VIN tags are switched every day and will continue to be done, and no laws are broken if no theft occours. The street rod guys build a new fiberglass body that has not one original part on it, and then buy titles for them from title services. Whithout this, these guys would have to title them as 2004 models and would have to comply with all current smog laws. this is something that is done every day! A truly cynical person like myself would simply look at this as putting new parts under an original VIN tag, and not putting a VIN tag on another car! LOL
The question is what constitutes a car? Does an original cowl and VIN constitute the a car? Does the VIN tag only constitute a car? Can you replace every part on a car but the VIN tag and be restoring a car?
My contention is, that if you have a clean title and VIN tag, and you have a pile of parts that are not stolen, then I have no problem putting that VIN on those parts! This is done every day when cars have rusted out birdcages. A new body is put in place, and the original tag is attached to the salvage body! Are you telling me that if you were to replace the body on a car due to a rotted birdcage, that you would then apply for a homebuilt title for that car? Frames are changed out every day,as are engine and transmissions, suspensions, and every other part of the car, and nobody wrings their hands, but mention a VIN tag and everybody goes off the deep end! VIN tags are switched every day and will continue to be done, and no laws are broken if no theft occours. The street rod guys build a new fiberglass body that has not one original part on it, and then buy titles for them from title services. Whithout this, these guys would have to title them as 2004 models and would have to comply with all current smog laws. this is something that is done every day! A truly cynical person like myself would simply look at this as putting new parts under an original VIN tag, and not putting a VIN tag on another car! LOL
01-13-2005, 10:46 PM
#23
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Just my 2c worth, but my dad bought my 60 25 years ago. Turns out, somene in Kansas switched vins along with the title. Sec. of State in Illinois did a search and it came out clean. I now have a bonded title on a 60 that appears to be a fuelie originally. Also came as a HT only with big tank and big brakes. I am thinking of selling, but not sure what the bonded title will do for the price. any input? We never did know why the vin was switched, but when the state said it was OK.
01-13-2005, 11:06 PM
#24
Safety Car
The VIN tags were prone to coming off on 60-62 cars. The tag was spot welded to the column, and they had a bad habit of coming loose.
A lot of times,after the tag came off, at the next title transfer it was caught and the state would issue a state issued VIN tag for the car after checking it out to assure that it was not stolen. While this VIN tag will not affect the car at judging, it will impact the final value of the car at the time of sale. Now days if a car was to lose it's VIN tag, most people would have a new reproduction tag made to match the original title to avoid impacting the value of the car. Back in the old days, nobody gave it a second thought, it was just an old car! Who knew that these cars were going to be worth what they are today!
Regards, John McGraw
A lot of times,after the tag came off, at the next title transfer it was caught and the state would issue a state issued VIN tag for the car after checking it out to assure that it was not stolen. While this VIN tag will not affect the car at judging, it will impact the final value of the car at the time of sale. Now days if a car was to lose it's VIN tag, most people would have a new reproduction tag made to match the original title to avoid impacting the value of the car. Back in the old days, nobody gave it a second thought, it was just an old car! Who knew that these cars were going to be worth what they are today!
Regards, John McGraw
01-13-2005, 11:14 PM
#25
Le Mans Master
John, you may not have a problem with it, but I believe it is illegal for an individual to switch VIN tags between different cars.
It's interesting that you mention the street rod guys using illegal titles to get around state law. Last month the California DMV had troopers serve a search warrant on Boyd Coddington's "American Hot Rod" shop. They were not there to reassure Coddington that it's okay to use illegal titles/VIN's "every day". I'm guessing the fines are going to be incredibly high in that case.
You might want to ask the Texas DMV about what constitutes a car. I talked it over with them 30 years ago when I lived in Houston to research an article for The Corvette Restorer. It was illegal in Texas to sell or re-apply bare titles and VIN tags in Texas then, and I'll bet it is still illegal today.
It's interesting that you mention the street rod guys using illegal titles to get around state law. Last month the California DMV had troopers serve a search warrant on Boyd Coddington's "American Hot Rod" shop. They were not there to reassure Coddington that it's okay to use illegal titles/VIN's "every day". I'm guessing the fines are going to be incredibly high in that case.
You might want to ask the Texas DMV about what constitutes a car. I talked it over with them 30 years ago when I lived in Houston to research an article for The Corvette Restorer. It was illegal in Texas to sell or re-apply bare titles and VIN tags in Texas then, and I'll bet it is still illegal today.
Last edited by jerrybramlett; 01-14-2005 at 07:05 AM.
01-13-2005, 11:14 PM
#26
Live Free or Die
Originally Posted by John McGraw
Jerry,
The question is what constitutes a car? Does an original cowl and VIN constitute the a car? Does the VIN tag only constitute a car? Can you replace every part on a car but the VIN tag and be restoring a car?
My contention is, that if you have a clean title and VIN tag, and you have a pile of parts that are not stolen, then I have no problem putting that VIN on those parts! This is done every day when cars have rusted out birdcages. A new body is put in place, and the original tag is attached to the salvage body! Are you telling me that if you were to replace the body on a car due to a rotted birdcage, that you would then apply for a homebuilt title for that car? Frames are changed out every day,as are engine and transmissions, suspensions, and every other part of the car, and nobody wrings their hands, but mention a VIN tag and everybody goes off the deep end! VIN tags are switched every day and will continue to be done, and no laws are broken if no theft occours. The street rod guys build a new fiberglass body that has not one original part on it, and then buy titles for them from title services. Whithout this, these guys would have to title them as 2004 models and would have to comply with all current smog laws. this is something that is done every day! A truly cynical person like myself would simply look at this as putting new parts under an original VIN tag, and not putting a VIN tag on another car! LOL
The question is what constitutes a car? Does an original cowl and VIN constitute the a car? Does the VIN tag only constitute a car? Can you replace every part on a car but the VIN tag and be restoring a car?
My contention is, that if you have a clean title and VIN tag, and you have a pile of parts that are not stolen, then I have no problem putting that VIN on those parts! This is done every day when cars have rusted out birdcages. A new body is put in place, and the original tag is attached to the salvage body! Are you telling me that if you were to replace the body on a car due to a rotted birdcage, that you would then apply for a homebuilt title for that car? Frames are changed out every day,as are engine and transmissions, suspensions, and every other part of the car, and nobody wrings their hands, but mention a VIN tag and everybody goes off the deep end! VIN tags are switched every day and will continue to be done, and no laws are broken if no theft occours. The street rod guys build a new fiberglass body that has not one original part on it, and then buy titles for them from title services. Whithout this, these guys would have to title them as 2004 models and would have to comply with all current smog laws. this is something that is done every day! A truly cynical person like myself would simply look at this as putting new parts under an original VIN tag, and not putting a VIN tag on another car! LOL
Thats my thoughts exactly.
01-14-2005, 05:42 AM
#27
Melting Slicks
Changing VIN tags is illegal nomatter what. I am a dealer and have been for over 20 years. I do know the laws. But that being said people do this every day. Most of these project cars and basket cases have no vin tags. With older cars most states are not all that carefull when checking vin numbers. So it is easy to get away with. Like I stated in an earlier post. How many guys just on this forum have changed your frames or put a aftermarket frame under your cars? Unless you all ran down to DMV and got state vin tags you are all criminals in the state eyes. So Johns view may not be legal but it is very common. And because we keep paying stupid high prices for corvettes with matching numbers( thats a joke) It will keep on happening. I will give you one more fact to think about. A few years ago I had a 03 vette that was hit in the nose in the shop. It was sent to me by another corvette shop. I have one of the only set a frame fixtures in the country so i do alot of frame work on these cars. Now on 97 and up vettes the vin is stamped in the rt side rail in the very front. I needed to replace that rail with a new one from GM. I called CT. DMV and asked what the deal was and what do I do about the vin number I am about to cut off. The DMV inspector took my name and dealer number and told me that if I cut that rail off he will arrest me for vin tampering. He came down the next day to see the car and the new parts. I showed him the GM books that says the rail needs to be replaced. I had to take pictures of the rail on and off the car and give the owner a copy of the GM book . He then needed to take the car for insection at DMV. And no this was not a salvage car.It was a car being repaired by the ins. comp. I don't know what happened after that, but thats what I get for asking what the law was. They have no answer. to them it is black and white and thats it. Brian G. 
01-14-2005, 08:43 AM
#28
Safety Car
Jerry,
If you read up on the "raid" on Boyd's and other shops, you will see that this action by California has nothing to do with title fraud, and everything to do with additional revenue! This whole crackdown was precipitated when the state realized that people registering Hot Rods as old cars, were understating the value of these cars, and the state was losing a large ammount of tax money! There were many guys with $150K custom built hot rods, who were registering them as a $10K 1936 Ford. Unlike a lot of other states, California bases tha registration fee every year based on the value of the car. Can you imagine having to pay $2000 a year to put tags on your car? Now the smog ***** have realized that they can attempt to force these cars to comply with 2004 smog rules, which we all know is next to impossible. These cars will just be moved to another state.
I can garantee you that If I was restoring an otherwise correct and numbers-matching car, and I had to change the body tub to correct a bad birdcage, then I would switch the tag. I do not know what you would do, but I would suspect you would do the same. If not, then congratulations, you are morally superior to me, and you can take comfort in that when you turn a numbers matching car into a kit car, and take a huge ammount off the value of that car! It is harder and harder to justify restoring some of these old Corvettes with the increase in costs, and when you decrease what the car will bring, it just does not make financial sense bring them back to life.
Jerry, don't get me wrong, I have never bought a title to restore a car, but I have moved VIN tags from one tub to another, and I am sure that I will do so in the future if needed. I have also replaced VIN tags on C1 cars that have been lost with repro tags, and will continue to do so in the future. I know what is right and what is wrong, and I have never purchased parts that I even THOUGHT were stolen, and I sleep very well at night. I just refuse to be a hippocrite about this issue like so many people do.
Regards, John McGraw
If you read up on the "raid" on Boyd's and other shops, you will see that this action by California has nothing to do with title fraud, and everything to do with additional revenue! This whole crackdown was precipitated when the state realized that people registering Hot Rods as old cars, were understating the value of these cars, and the state was losing a large ammount of tax money! There were many guys with $150K custom built hot rods, who were registering them as a $10K 1936 Ford. Unlike a lot of other states, California bases tha registration fee every year based on the value of the car. Can you imagine having to pay $2000 a year to put tags on your car? Now the smog ***** have realized that they can attempt to force these cars to comply with 2004 smog rules, which we all know is next to impossible. These cars will just be moved to another state.
I can garantee you that If I was restoring an otherwise correct and numbers-matching car, and I had to change the body tub to correct a bad birdcage, then I would switch the tag. I do not know what you would do, but I would suspect you would do the same. If not, then congratulations, you are morally superior to me, and you can take comfort in that when you turn a numbers matching car into a kit car, and take a huge ammount off the value of that car! It is harder and harder to justify restoring some of these old Corvettes with the increase in costs, and when you decrease what the car will bring, it just does not make financial sense bring them back to life.
Jerry, don't get me wrong, I have never bought a title to restore a car, but I have moved VIN tags from one tub to another, and I am sure that I will do so in the future if needed. I have also replaced VIN tags on C1 cars that have been lost with repro tags, and will continue to do so in the future. I know what is right and what is wrong, and I have never purchased parts that I even THOUGHT were stolen, and I sleep very well at night. I just refuse to be a hippocrite about this issue like so many people do.
Regards, John McGraw
Brian G.
01-14-2005, 09:46 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
like I said waaaay up this thread, you ain't doing this hobby any favors when you sell a bare title and VIN - they end up on some made up car - I put anyone selling such things in the same league as someone selling the original-style gang stamp that was used to stamp the engine pad - what DID you think it was going to be used for?. And if being law abiding is an issue for you (it is for me) I could go pull the V&T Code section for your state and likely find for you which law or reg you would be in violation of.
but I guess that's just me, and certainly not the overwhelming majority seem to feel the same.
but I guess that's just me, and certainly not the overwhelming majority seem to feel the same.
01-15-2005, 12:08 AM
#31
Race Director
From what ive been told in the past,without the original car these parts are useless.Whats the main reason someone would want these parts.To build a car.There is only one reason someone would pay so much for a useless metal tag and a useless piece of paper.To build a bogus car.Period.
01-15-2005, 12:28 AM
#32
Race Director
You can justify it anyway you want,bring a car back from the dead,tell yourself whatever it takes to build the car.Using paper work from two cars to build one is unlawful and deceitful,plain and simple.When these bogus cars are sold how often is it disclosed that the paper work is questionable?I would rather have a state issued VIN than have a fraud hanging over my head.
01-15-2005, 10:05 AM
#33
Safety Car
Using this logic, putting a new front clip on a car , a frame replacement,or replacing the body tub because of birdcage rust, is decietful and a fraud. All of these things are meant to make the car appear as original. Everything that is done in the "restoration" of old Corvettes is meant to make the car look as if it just rolled off the assembly line. This hobby has demanded better and better reproduction that will fool even experts. Using a very simplistic logic, this is deciet, and quite often fraud! Let's outlaw correct reproduction parts that could fool a judge. and while we are at it, lets outlaw the sale of salvage Corvette parts that could be used to put a damaged corvette back to "as built" condition. Or we could just require all Corvettes that have had major restoration to be issued salvage titles like modern cars do! As the supply of any old car dries up, and the demand goes up for these cars, more and more of them will be ressurected from salvage yards, and people will be searching for clear titles for them. This is not a issue that is limited to Corvettes. you may not agree with this, but it is common practice, and will do nothing but increase as these old muscle cars age and become more in demand.
Regards, John McGraw
Regards, John McGraw
01-15-2005, 12:20 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by aworks
Changing VIN tags is illegal nomatter what..... A few years ago I had a 03 vette that was hit in the nose in the shop. It was sent to me by another corvette shop. I have one of the only set a frame fixtures in the country so i do alot of frame work on these cars. Now on 97 and up vettes the vin is stamped in the rt side rail in the very front. I needed to replace that rail with a new one from GM. I called CT. DMV and asked what the deal was and what do I do about the vin number I am about to cut off. The DMV inspector took my name and dealer number and told me that if I cut that rail off he will arrest me for vin tampering. He came down the next day to see the car and the new parts. I showed him the GM books that says the rail needs to be replaced. I had to take pictures of the rail on and off the car and give the owner a copy of the GM book . He then needed to take the car for insection at DMV. And no this was not a salvage car.It was a car being repaired by the ins. comp. I don't know what happened after that, but thats what I get for asking what the law was. They have no answer. to them it is black and white and thats it. Brian G.
01-15-2005, 01:42 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by ctjackster
.... And if being law abiding is an issue for you (it is for me) I could go pull the V&T Code section for your state and likely find for you which law or reg you would be in violation of.
but I guess that's just me, and certainly not the overwhelming majority seem to feel the same.
but I guess that's just me, and certainly not the overwhelming majority seem to feel the same.
What you have to ask yourself is: Is swapping a frame, body tub, VIN tag, etc. morally wrong, or just legally wrong? In every instance it is legally wrong but only in rare instances is it morally wrong (laundering stolen parts or vehicles, making bogus cars, etc.).
01-15-2005, 06:07 PM
#36
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by Vipermike
The problem is you have to distinguish between what is illegal and what is immoral (they're not always the same thing). We all knowingly break the law on occasion but we don't worry about it because it's not morally wrong. Many people occasionally commit immoral acts which are not illegal. And finally, there are some people that commit acts which are both illegal and immoral. Here are some examples: Driving faster than the speed limit is illegal but not immoral. Calling in sick to work when you aren't actually sick is immoral but not illegal. Swapping a clean VIN tag onto a stolen car is both illegal and immoral.
What you have to ask yourself is: Is swapping a frame, body tub, VIN tag, etc. morally wrong, or just legally wrong? In every instance it is legally wrong but only in rare instances is it morally wrong (laundering stolen parts or vehicles, making bogus cars, etc.).
What you have to ask yourself is: Is swapping a frame, body tub, VIN tag, etc. morally wrong, or just legally wrong? In every instance it is legally wrong but only in rare instances is it morally wrong (laundering stolen parts or vehicles, making bogus cars, etc.).
01-15-2005, 06:18 PM
#37
Melting Slicks
Vin Tags
All I Know In Connecticuit When You Register A Old Corvette They Check The Vin Tag And Vin Number On The Frame .if They Are Diffrent You Have A Big Problem To Deal With. A Friend Of Mine So This A Few Years Back When He Took His Car For Inspection .they Might Have Impunded It,bob W
01-15-2005, 08:43 PM
#38
Le Mans Master
funny, when I registered my 65 two years ago in CT they DID inspect the car and run a VIN check (car came from out of state) but no way did they check the VIN on the frame . . I have never even checked the VIN on the frame. Maybe I should; maybe some self-interested "hey I ain't hurtin anybody" guy sold the previous owner of my car a VIN tag and title . . .., and the my car was really stolen or totaled at one point in its life 
01-15-2005, 11:21 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by ctjackster
As I have indicated twice [above], this sort of conduct is... just not right
I agree that putting a clean VIN tag on a dubiously obtained car is both illegal and immoral.
01-15-2005, 11:35 PM
#40
Safety Car
ctjackster,
You probably do not want to know whether you frame # matches. A northeast car that has been driven in the winter, has a pretty fair chance of having had a frame replacement sometime in it's life. It is a lot easier to see the VIN on the frame of a C2 with the body on then it is on a C1. Your comments however are exactly on point. You have had this car for 2 years, and I would presume you have been very happy with it, and then you find that the frame was from another car. Does that make the car any less simply because the frame has another # on it, or maybe no # in the case of a reproduction frame? Maybe some **** retentive restorer took the time to stamp the correct #'s back on the frame, but how would you know for sure, and what the hell difference does it really make?
If any of the numbers on the car belong to a stolen car, then that is a different matter. Guys, we are not talking about creating copies of one-of-a-kind masterpeices like an old masters painting for crying out loud, we are talking about a 40 year old car which has probably had the majority of it's parts either restored or replaced. These cars are just a random collection of parts out of the parts bins of GM, and any part could have been put on any particular car depending on where it was in the bin. While I can respect you opinions, I do not necessarily agree with them. We are all responsible for this numbers matching madness. The market demands that cars have all sorts of documentation and matching numbers, regardless of the level of restoration. Is it any wonder that people would seek to clear the title of a car with a state issued VIN tag given the premium that that that car will demand with an original GM tag? Even though you can take a car to Top Flight and Duntov with a State-issued tag, just wait until you try and sell it!
Regards, Johhn McGraw
You probably do not want to know whether you frame # matches. A northeast car that has been driven in the winter, has a pretty fair chance of having had a frame replacement sometime in it's life. It is a lot easier to see the VIN on the frame of a C2 with the body on then it is on a C1. Your comments however are exactly on point. You have had this car for 2 years, and I would presume you have been very happy with it, and then you find that the frame was from another car. Does that make the car any less simply because the frame has another # on it, or maybe no # in the case of a reproduction frame? Maybe some **** retentive restorer took the time to stamp the correct #'s back on the frame, but how would you know for sure, and what the hell difference does it really make?
If any of the numbers on the car belong to a stolen car, then that is a different matter. Guys, we are not talking about creating copies of one-of-a-kind masterpeices like an old masters painting for crying out loud, we are talking about a 40 year old car which has probably had the majority of it's parts either restored or replaced. These cars are just a random collection of parts out of the parts bins of GM, and any part could have been put on any particular car depending on where it was in the bin. While I can respect you opinions, I do not necessarily agree with them. We are all responsible for this numbers matching madness. The market demands that cars have all sorts of documentation and matching numbers, regardless of the level of restoration. Is it any wonder that people would seek to clear the title of a car with a state issued VIN tag given the premium that that that car will demand with an original GM tag? Even though you can take a car to Top Flight and Duntov with a State-issued tag, just wait until you try and sell it!
Regards, Johhn McGraw
