KALAWAY

I was thinking about getting my A/C system charged up to determine what exactly it needed to be functional. All the parts are there except the belt, so I never tried it out. The compressor turns freely by hand. A service station attendant (might be a Bubba) told me prior to bringing my car in that he puts R134 in old R12 systems without any kind of conversion kit. He says it dosen't matter what you use. You don't need to convert, just put in the new stuff instead of the old R12. My question to the forum. How safe is this? Forget any environmental impact (we have Vettes, remember). Will this hurt my A/C system/engine?

zwede

Sounds like Bubba to me. R12 uses 500 vis mineral oil. R134a systems use PAG oil. R134a does not mix with mineral oil. If you put R134a into a R12 system the mineral oil will not circulate and the compressor seizes in short order.

Now there are conversion kits available for cheap that seem to work fine. They contain a chemical that lets mineral oil mix with R134a and also Ester oil which is compatible with both R12 and R134a. I did the conversion kit on my second car (1983 Caddy) a few years ago and it blows very cold.

Tom73

Take it to a good a/c shop and find out what is wrong with the system. Then get that fixed. You can then make the decesion if to stay with R12 or convert to 134a. I would recommend staying with what the system was designed for. If the system is in correct working order, then a fill of R12 will just be a one time event. Yes it will cost more, but will be a one time cost. There is lots of R12 out there, warehouses full of it, and demand is droping as r12 systems are taken off the road (junked) or are converted. We should not run out of R12 in our lifetimes

tom...

ffas23

Interdynamics makes a conversion kit to change over to R134A. It comes with a neutralizer for the compressor oil in the kit mixed with R134A to shoot into the system so that you will be able to use R134A Freon. You could also go out and purchase the product Freeze 12 which is compatible with the R-12 system. I don't agree that there are warehouses full of R-12 out there. I have been in the automotive parts business now 27 years and deal with different auto parts warehouses across the nation. It is illegal to manufacture R-12 anywhere. This law came in effect in the very early 90's. Yes there is still R-12 product out there but not a whole lot of it. If anyone has a lot of it, it is probably new product that has been smuggled into the country. If it were my choice I would go with the Freeze 12 product. I sell both R134A and Freeze 12 but have repair customers who swear the Freeze 12 product has produced colder temperatures. I have used the product personally myself and I can't tell the difference between using Freeze 12 or regular R-12.

Desertdawg

I just filled mine with envirosafe/freeze12, and I can't tell the difference between it and R12.
Lot's of guys around here say to stay away from the R134 in vettes, because the condenser isn't big enough to cool it.

Tom73

No way it is compatible with the R-12 system. Freeze 12 is a blend made up of 80% HFC-134a and 20% HCFC-142b. Basicly a 134a product. Thus not compatible.

True, need to run what the system was designed for. Those that were designed for 134a were built with higher capacities to allow for the decreased cooling ability of 134a.

tom...

ffas23

Tom 73, I have to disagree with you here. You need to check your facts.
The manufacturer says that Freeze 12 is compatible with the R-12 system. Go to this link: http://www.freeze12.com/

By compatible they don't mean that you are to mix both refrigerants but if the system is sucked down of any R-12 in the system you can fill it with Freeze 12 and will not have any problem. Being in the auto parts business I have sold plenty of Freeze 12 over the years as well as thousands of conversion kits for the R134A changeover and haven't seen any kind of a problem arising out of it. If your compressor is good and you change the dryer you should be good to go. If your compressor is on its way out or dead to begin with I don't care what you put in the system nothing will help it.

Tom73

Manufacturers make a lot of statements to sell a product. If by compatable they mean if you evac the system and install the correct oil, then, yes Freeze 12 would be compatable. And under those conditions, so is 134a as would be 90% of the other refregrents out there. The exceptions would be HCFC-22 products which require the use of barrier hoses.

tom...

ffas23

Tom,
I'm not going to argue with you about this. I am only giving you the facts that I know and telling everyone here on the forum about the experience I have had over the years using and selling the Freeze 12 product. Being a Automotive Jobber I should be one of the first ones out there in the trade to see if any problems arose over the use of the Freeze 12 product. I am telling you what I know. I am not making anything up here. I gave the link: http://www.freeze12.com/
for all to read here and the manufacturer Johnsons says Freeze 12 in their words is (A COMPLETELY COMPATIBLE REFRIGERANT REPLACEMENT OF WHICH MILLIONS OF POUNDS HAVE ALREADY BEEN SOLD AND USED AROUND THE WORLD) for R-12 systems. You are right manufacturers can say anything to sell a product but this product has been out for years and as far as I am concerned it is now a proven product. Years have gone by already and if the product was bad I wouldn't sell it and so wouldn't alot of other jobbers, parts stores and what have you. If it wasn't any good they would be out of business by now. Johnsons has been around a long time though. They use to manufacturer R-12 also years ago.

Tom73

Sorry,
Not trying to argue or even question that Freeze 12 is any good or not. In fact, have an old off-brand car that I have been considering Freeze 12 for if I get around to re-doing the a/c. Just concerned that some may get the wrong idea the way that the manufacturers throw around the word "compatable". At least they are not saying "drop-in" like some have tried

tom...