aboatguy

If they kill another division I would have my money on Buick!

Mike

Kid Vette

I think this says it all. Some things never change

Frankenvette, if you think the Japanese crap is so good, why don't you move over there?

Entropy

Kid Vette,

What kind of a remark is that?
If anything the competition is good, it will push GM to make a better product. The foreign cars I've owned (1986 Nissan Pulsar, 1995 Nissan Truck) were good products, that were dependable and solid. The GM products I've owned (other then the Vette and my first car a 1985 Olds cutlass cruiser) have been sub par quality and have given me lots of trouble (1988 Beretta and 1988 Corsica-both had head gasket work done on them twice, the beretta three times). Does this previous experience effect my decision when I look at cars? Your darn right it does. I also find a lot of the offerings bland and rather unexciting to drive. Do I plan on buying another american car...maybe, but it'd probably be a vette. It's the only thing that raises my blood pressure, and to me that's what matters in a car.

trw

Sprzout

Kid Vette, I have news for you...

GM's been buying parts from Honda.

Yep...You know that 250hp engine that's found in the Saturn VUE (which, at last check, was a part of GM)? Guess what? That's a Honda motor.

And what's more, it's been a Honda engine for several years.

Kinda makes you wonder...

The Japanese have been making cars that compete right up there with the American cars. Look at the numbers a 2004 Nissan 350z puts out, and compare it with the numbers a 2004 Corvette puts out. Then look at the price tag. For about $27k, you can buy a car that performs almost as well as a base model Vette, which is around $45k.

Now, I like the Corvette, always will...But when you stand 2 cars next to each other that perform fairly closely, the general public will question the extra $18k for a Corvette, and will most likely choose the one that's cheaper.

Sprzout

Beretta...I remember for a few years (and believe me, it wasn't many!) the CHP used to run with those cars...They stopped because the things fell apart on them.

As for head gaskets, seems that's something Chevy's NEVER fixed. My dad owned an old Chevy Luv pickup (circa 1970's) and the thing would blow a head gasket like clockwork at 8k mi. It had to do with using a cast iron block and aluminum heads. Hello, did nobody bother to tell the engineers that iron and aluminum have different expansion and contraction rates? Those were things covered in my high school physics and chemistry lessons.

My dad used to have to torque down the heads at every oil change, and even then that didn't stop the head gasket from blowing...

Oh well.

pcfred

The same thing happend to Chrysler years ago and the Gov. bailed them out. they had the same old dull square body designs for years. They had this old guy as head of design for 60 years and their models showed it. Once they changed the design team and revamped their line sales picked up considerably. Right now they have some of the best selling models in the industry, now if they could just learn the meaning of quality

Jay M

I went to the GM auto show in motion a few months ago. I got to drvie almost everything GM makes, they also suplied some competition- Mercedes, Honda, Saab, Acura, BMW.

I was impressed with the Cadilac...but when I saw the price I realized that they are almost as much as a mercedes. The mercedes is a much better car to drive.

The SSR was cool, but it was a very expensive toy.

The $50,000 C6 was awesoome, but the interior wasn't quite as good as a $22,000 Honda Accord.

The Saturn Sky is a work of art! But it doesn't have the power to match it's looks.

The H3 was great, I really liked it, the price was reasonable, it was great to drive. If I wanted an SUV it would be on my short list. THe H2 on the other hand is way over priced, and the gas milage is horrible! But they sell like mad here....so I guess GM knows better than me.

The GTO felt mushy and loose. I was very dissapointed. But the LS2 is so awesome it helps you forgive some of the GTO's flaws.

I left that show wanting a Mercedes. It was a great combination of power, comfort and handling. Their automatic is outstanding.

The C6 was so impressive it made seriously consider buying a C5...I can't afford the C6. After spending time in the C5 section I can see that the C5 won't be a very practical car for me. The list of known issues is very long. After 7 years of production most of those issues should have been fixed, most were not.

The cars that Were NOT and the auto show in motion were what I consider the most desireable:
Dodge Magnum
Dodge Charger
Infiniti G35
Nissan 350z
Ford Mustang
RX-8

All those cars are fast fun and affordable.... well sort of affordable

GM has dropped the ball. The car that I can't believe they produced is a cheap copy of a PT cruizer. They are about 5 years too late for that copycat car.

In my opinion GM has only two things going for them, the corvette, and the LS2/7 engines. If they could get 300hp out of the Sky, then they may have a winner there too.

My next daily driver car will either be a used Corvette C5, or somthing other than GM.

GM has nothing to offer me besides the C6...which i can't afford. In every other market segment there is something that is a significantly better value and of better quality.

I don't expect GM to go away anytime soon. They may turn around like Chrysler did. I sure hope so. The world needs more 425hp station wagons ala Hemi Magnum. Maybe an LS7 Nomad would be a good answer to that.

~Jay

KALAWAY

Hey Red Bad, you can't buy a new C6 for $50K. Crazy, huh? I looked at three 2006 Vettes last weekend that were within a grand of $57K. None were verts.

rihwoods

A local dealer here is selling them for $51 K out the door...just the standard coupes...

79ls1

Same with ford= Mazda engines in most of it's line. Dodge uses Mitsubishi.
What is happeneing in GM is the same as at the airlines in a way. You have very stiff competition in a commodity market. It all boils down to leadership (or lack of it) almost without fail. If the exec's don't have vision or if they rest on their laurels, it's over.

bobs1978

Don't seem GM going totally under. They'll probably drop either the Pontiac or Buick line and do major corp. re-structuring. The Corvette is their most profitable product - it should survive OK.

Frankenvette

I have no plans to move over there. Truthfully I'm not sure why you made this remark other than your possible anger that I mentioned that my Acura is a good car. If someone in a foreign country thinks American made products are good, should they be told to move to America?

moosie982

Hey, From what I've read about it the major reason was health care benefits for their hourly workers, and if they (the hourly workers) were willing to concede some of G.M.'s contribution to it that they, G.M. would find it easier to stay alive and in business. Maybe they are paid too much ? Peace,,,Moosie

P.S. Yes I know that all the big-wigs are paid too much , but do you honestly think that they'd give anything back ????

Frankenvette

In the news today...
http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/21/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

big_G

I hate to say it, but the greedy unions have reaped what they sowed. The only viable auto makers, IMO, will be non-union or ones with major give-backs.

Frankenvette

You just opened up a can of worms from those who may be a union member... but I agree with your statement.

theandies

I personally like GM products. I've owned everything from foreign jobs to Scwhinns. The best car I ever had (and I know I am going to get some flack) was a 1986 Pontiac Fiero. It had the Iron Duke 4 banger and when I sold it it had 147,000 miles on it. The only thing I ever had done to it was an A/C compressor change under warranty. I have a Ford Taurus company car and it seems like Fords start falling apart around 30,000 miles. I had a 1996 Ranger that did the same thing. When my company lease is up next summer I am going to buy Cobalt. I've test-drove every car in that class and I like the Chevy the best. Maybe I just have bow tie blood cells but I just can't see me buying anything other than GM. Call me crazy.

79ls1

That is the standard company line whenever business is down almost regardless of what business it is. I went through it, am STILL going through it (I work for Delta). I am not union nor do I like unions. As far as I'm concerned unions are just as crooked as the execs, one is no better than the other, both attept to manipulate the working stiff for personal gain and when it doesn't work, it's on the working man's back. He's the guy who pays for it. But, as I said earlier, lack of leadership is almost always the problem, the root cause and can usually be traced back several years, sometimes a couple of decades. Someone said that he doesn't see GM going under. 10 years ago, would anyone have thought that the airlines would be going under? It can happen. I always suggest "Airline without a Pilot" as a really good read whenever this discussion comes up. It is an eye-opener for sure.

C3nMe

Unions certainly had their time and place when companies would not bother with the worker, safe working environments and so forth. Without the strength of the union, the on the job deaths/injuries/usery would have been intolerable. Sadly, I think unions outlived their usefullness (and I used to be in one). I left the union since they promoted "tenure" over "skill". No matter how much better I was than someone who was there longer, the opportunities always went to them first. They essentially are there to protect the screw ups </digress>

GM isn't going to go out of business -- cash reserves or not -- they have a lot of assets and they can restructure. I also think that the Japanese auto manufacturers would come to GMs aid, if needed. Why? Does that sound stupid? I thought so too, but I saw an interview with the head of Toyota saying they do not want GM to go out of business -- that could create a significant anti-Japanese backlash that would significantly impact the Japanese mfgs business as well.

I've driven GM products, and apart from my Vette, I wouldn't purchase one. They have a ton of "aw cool" gadgets, which is nice, but they drive like crap. Let me expain: The throttle is unresponsive, and disconnected (throttle by wire?) and that is unnerving. Cruise control allows the pedal to return to the no-throttle position, so I can't "feel" the changes (most probably don't care), but I also use that to feel it grab. The ones I have had to service (some years ago) were usually cumbersome to do even simple maintenance.

It may not be a popular opinion, but I'm pretty much prefer Ford products (and yes, I like the Mustang), but the Mustang doesn't feel as exclusive as the Vette. I bought a Vette that was nearly 30 years old to get one that I liked (I can safely say that C4s lost of a lot of syling that made the Vette distinct -- it shouldn't "appear" like a normal 2-door sedan). But, for my next daily driver, I'd probably look at Ford or an import (Toyota, perhaps -- or maybe Honda, but I expect them to be too expensive).

It's all a matter of taste and preference, much like someone prefering Coke or Pepsi (although, with cars its a bit more quantifiable). I think we can all agree that we love cars, and they're going to be around.

(PS. If you don't believe my stand on unions, take a look at the factory production between the big three auto-makers, and you'll see that GM is almost always lagging bug double-digit margins due to union issues. One year, I saw a 107% for Ford, 105% for Chrysler, and 89% for GM -- they can't make money on what they're not producing).

<ducking>

Brian.

jester4

In my opinion, I think GM is on the right track with the cobalt.......for it's class.