Vintage road race pics
11-25-2007, 12:45 AM
#221
Melting Slicks
First I wouldnt worry about bursting any of my bubbles, I have millions of them.
The "lightweight" car has been referred to that by many publications, and was perhaps something that started way back in the 70's. I will have to look at the old issues of "Corvette News" I have lying about...I remember it being referred to as special many years ago. Perhaps its just a bubble. In any case the reason for the forums is education and lively debate. As far as I know however, many publications are clear that there were lightweights. Now I don't know much, but I would really hate to say there never were any...after all for years people felt that there were no L-88's built in 1966!
As for the rich idiots, provenance, originality and presentation sell cars, always have. I wouldn't worry about them doing their homework. The Owens Corning cars were racers, and frames were replaced after every shunt, or before every 24 hour endurance race. Some of the "cars" may have had in upwards of 20? frames! Does this change the fact that you have the car that won those races all those years ago? Absolutly not. The car is the car. Things that get replaced are replaced, and do not change the value of the car unless a total reconstruction out of the ordinary takes place. Or a post service reincarnation....
The big dollar rich idiot car was this one....from the press release...sold at $446,250.00
The Corvette that sold at St. Charles is one of the most highly documented, low mileage Corvettes in existence. Rare for any 1969 Corvette, much less an L88. The Corvette retains its original matching numbers engine, transmission, carburetor and interior. Only 2,248 miles are on the one-owner car.
Like many L88 Corvettes, this car was destined for the track. Purchased by Dennis Ahrens from Dick Wickstrom Chevrolet in Roselle, Illinois on December 12, 1969, the Corvette was prepped to be a drag racer, achieving a best time of 10.82 seconds in the quarter mile. Many of the Corvette's original parts were set aside and saved during her racing days, only to be reunited later when the owner restored her back to factory specifications in 2005-06. Since restoration, the Corvette has received Bloomington Gold Certification, NCRS National Top Flight, Gold Spinner Award and the Triple Crown Award with all scores at 97, 98 or 99.
The Corvette today sits on three of four original wheels and has the original spare tire. It is believed to be one of the last three L88's ever produced and is the only known L88 with red exterior and tan interior. It is also one of only 25 delivered with a 4.56 positraction rear end. The Corvette is fully documented with the original window sticker, Protect-O-Plate, dealer sales invoice and order form, tax and license receipt and the owner's manual. Topping of the impressive list of docs is the Illinois Title in the original owner's name.
Now I know that there are racers out there with "history", but if you wanted the best factory spec L-88 where could you find another oine (in red) and how much would it cost? This is a nonduplicatable car in many ways. How much an idiot was that paying good money for the best? It was an auction, so that means, you guessed it, more than one idiot, or at least two people who felt that this car and its individual history was worth paying for.
For my money, I think the blue #1 or #8 racer is truly one of the must haves for a racecar. However is it worth as much money as a perfect NCRS 98 point International Blue 68 convertible L-88? Personally not to me.....
The "lightweight" car has been referred to that by many publications, and was perhaps something that started way back in the 70's. I will have to look at the old issues of "Corvette News" I have lying about...I remember it being referred to as special many years ago. Perhaps its just a bubble. In any case the reason for the forums is education and lively debate. As far as I know however, many publications are clear that there were lightweights. Now I don't know much, but I would really hate to say there never were any...after all for years people felt that there were no L-88's built in 1966!
As for the rich idiots, provenance, originality and presentation sell cars, always have. I wouldn't worry about them doing their homework. The Owens Corning cars were racers, and frames were replaced after every shunt, or before every 24 hour endurance race. Some of the "cars" may have had in upwards of 20? frames! Does this change the fact that you have the car that won those races all those years ago? Absolutly not. The car is the car. Things that get replaced are replaced, and do not change the value of the car unless a total reconstruction out of the ordinary takes place. Or a post service reincarnation....
The big dollar rich idiot car was this one....from the press release...sold at $446,250.00
The Corvette that sold at St. Charles is one of the most highly documented, low mileage Corvettes in existence. Rare for any 1969 Corvette, much less an L88. The Corvette retains its original matching numbers engine, transmission, carburetor and interior. Only 2,248 miles are on the one-owner car.
Like many L88 Corvettes, this car was destined for the track. Purchased by Dennis Ahrens from Dick Wickstrom Chevrolet in Roselle, Illinois on December 12, 1969, the Corvette was prepped to be a drag racer, achieving a best time of 10.82 seconds in the quarter mile. Many of the Corvette's original parts were set aside and saved during her racing days, only to be reunited later when the owner restored her back to factory specifications in 2005-06. Since restoration, the Corvette has received Bloomington Gold Certification, NCRS National Top Flight, Gold Spinner Award and the Triple Crown Award with all scores at 97, 98 or 99.
The Corvette today sits on three of four original wheels and has the original spare tire. It is believed to be one of the last three L88's ever produced and is the only known L88 with red exterior and tan interior. It is also one of only 25 delivered with a 4.56 positraction rear end. The Corvette is fully documented with the original window sticker, Protect-O-Plate, dealer sales invoice and order form, tax and license receipt and the owner's manual. Topping of the impressive list of docs is the Illinois Title in the original owner's name.
Now I know that there are racers out there with "history", but if you wanted the best factory spec L-88 where could you find another oine (in red) and how much would it cost? This is a nonduplicatable car in many ways. How much an idiot was that paying good money for the best? It was an auction, so that means, you guessed it, more than one idiot, or at least two people who felt that this car and its individual history was worth paying for.
For my money, I think the blue #1 or #8 racer is truly one of the must haves for a racecar. However is it worth as much money as a perfect NCRS 98 point International Blue 68 convertible L-88? Personally not to me.....
Last edited by international blue; 11-25-2007 at 12:50 AM.
11-25-2007, 08:51 AM
#222
Race Director
[QUOTE=Solid LT1;1562892026]
you have your "facts" slightly off...Tony Delorenzo`s father was the VP of public relations at GM, Jerry Thompson was a GM engineer. the first Owens-Corning team built car was a 1968 built from parts taken off the production line at GM, the second 1969 car was an L-88 car.....the third car the team built (my car) was built from a recovered theft Delorenzo bought from Don Yenko (original engine unknown)...A while back someone here was asking about a "lightweight car" when I asked Delorenzo he said they might have been referring to the aluminum headed cars.....redvetracr
PS: your looking at the third Owens-Corning built car as it was when GM styline engineer Randy Wittene painted it for Delorenzo...it won the 50th anniversary race at the AVUS track in Berlin...Germany (racing against the best "ringers" the Porsche factory had)
Finally the #8 "Lightweight L-88" one of the more historic vintage survivors extant. A superbly provenanced racer...
I don't mean to burst you bubble but THERE WERE NO "lightweight" C3 Vettes made. This is a "fallacy" propted by Kevin McKay of Long Island Corvettes and the owners of various L-88 Vettes INCLUDING the Owens-Corning Corvettes (that were NOT! production built L-88 Corvettes.) The Owens-Corning Vettes were campaigned by Jerry Thompson son of a GM vice president and these Vettes were pre-production "mules" taken a fitted with L-88 motors for racing. The FIRST L-88 C3 Vettes were bought by American Internation Racing for preperation for the Daytona 24hrs in November of 1967. James Garner put his name behind the AIR teamand Dick Guldstrand oversaw building of these cars into racing Corvettes. This story is DOCUMENTED by Corvette News in 1967. The car pictured above was owned by Herb Caplan and is a REAL L-88 Vette but NOT a lightweight. This car was revised in the middle 1970s by my friend Dave Herlinger (Corvette Repair, Mtn View, CA) and campainged by Phyliss Styles inthe late 1970s and driven by Elliott Forbes Robinson to the LAST SCCA A production championship in 1978. My good friend Barry Parker did the body work on this Vette (and is still doing excellent bodywork right now!) I find it really funny that many of the "rich idiots" buy L-88 Vettes for $500K and this car that is probably one of the best L-88 Vettes that ever competed went for around $135K at the Monterey auction a few years ago. I know it is owned by Mid-America Corvettes now and after talking to my good friend Dave at Corvette repair, Mike Yager now knows he has one of the best L-88 racing Vettes in the USA. To put things in prespective, I like the Owens-Corning Vettes BUT, all of the O-C Vettes have been involved in MAJOR racetrack incidents and little of the original car remains, while the AIR (garner) and Caplan L-88s are still in pretty good shape. PLEASE STOP using the term "lightweight" regarding C3 Covettes! The only "lightweight" Corvettes were the SS cars of the 1950s, the 1959 Bill Mitchell Sting-Ray racer and the Grand-Sport Corvettes. Here is a link to the AIR L-88 Vettes, both owned by the Herlinger Brothers of the SF Bay area (Jims is restored, Daves is a "project in flux" like a couple of my Corvettes, including my Rich Hearn 63 Fuelie BP champion race Vette) AIR L-88 link: http://www.vetteweb.com/features/vem...l88/index.html
I don't mean to burst you bubble but THERE WERE NO "lightweight" C3 Vettes made. This is a "fallacy" propted by Kevin McKay of Long Island Corvettes and the owners of various L-88 Vettes INCLUDING the Owens-Corning Corvettes (that were NOT! production built L-88 Corvettes.) The Owens-Corning Vettes were campaigned by Jerry Thompson son of a GM vice president and these Vettes were pre-production "mules" taken a fitted with L-88 motors for racing. The FIRST L-88 C3 Vettes were bought by American Internation Racing for preperation for the Daytona 24hrs in November of 1967. James Garner put his name behind the AIR teamand Dick Guldstrand oversaw building of these cars into racing Corvettes. This story is DOCUMENTED by Corvette News in 1967. The car pictured above was owned by Herb Caplan and is a REAL L-88 Vette but NOT a lightweight. This car was revised in the middle 1970s by my friend Dave Herlinger (Corvette Repair, Mtn View, CA) and campainged by Phyliss Styles inthe late 1970s and driven by Elliott Forbes Robinson to the LAST SCCA A production championship in 1978. My good friend Barry Parker did the body work on this Vette (and is still doing excellent bodywork right now!) I find it really funny that many of the "rich idiots" buy L-88 Vettes for $500K and this car that is probably one of the best L-88 Vettes that ever competed went for around $135K at the Monterey auction a few years ago. I know it is owned by Mid-America Corvettes now and after talking to my good friend Dave at Corvette repair, Mike Yager now knows he has one of the best L-88 racing Vettes in the USA. To put things in prespective, I like the Owens-Corning Vettes BUT, all of the O-C Vettes have been involved in MAJOR racetrack incidents and little of the original car remains, while the AIR (garner) and Caplan L-88s are still in pretty good shape. PLEASE STOP using the term "lightweight" regarding C3 Covettes! The only "lightweight" Corvettes were the SS cars of the 1950s, the 1959 Bill Mitchell Sting-Ray racer and the Grand-Sport Corvettes. Here is a link to the AIR L-88 Vettes, both owned by the Herlinger Brothers of the SF Bay area (Jims is restored, Daves is a "project in flux" like a couple of my Corvettes, including my Rich Hearn 63 Fuelie BP champion race Vette) AIR L-88 link: http://www.vetteweb.com/features/vem...l88/index.html
PS: your looking at the third Owens-Corning built car as it was when GM styline engineer Randy Wittene painted it for Delorenzo...it won the 50th anniversary race at the AVUS track in Berlin...Germany (racing against the best "ringers" the Porsche factory had)
11-25-2007, 10:14 AM
#223
Safety Car
Maybe Kevin was refering to this car when using the term "lightweight"? 
Racervette69, have you talked to Lance Smith (Formerly from Phila, now in Cali)? How about the Golden's? They're out your way. Between the two of them, they've owned about all the Greenwood racers at one time or another. /:\
Racervette69, have you talked to Lance Smith (Formerly from Phila, now in Cali)? How about the Golden's? They're out your way. Between the two of them, they've owned about all the Greenwood racers at one time or another. /:\
11-25-2007, 12:34 PM
#224
Senior Member since 1492
[QUOTE=redvetracr;1562893801]
you have your "facts" slightly off...Tony Delorenzo`s father was the VP of public relations at GM, Jerry Thompson was a GM engineer. the first Owens-Corning team built car was a 1968 built from parts taken off the production line at GM, the second 1969 car was an L-88 car.....the third car the team built (my car) was built from a recovered theft Delorenzo bought from Don Yenko (original engine unknown)...A while back someone here was asking about a "lightweight car" when I asked Delorenzo he said they might have been referring to the aluminum headed cars.....redvetracr
PS: your looking at the third Owens-Corning built car as it was when GM styline engineer Randy Wittene painted it for Delorenzo...it won the 50th anniversary race at the AVUS track in Berlin...Germany (racing against the best "ringers" the Porsche factory had)
pic Howard.
you have your "facts" slightly off...Tony Delorenzo`s father was the VP of public relations at GM, Jerry Thompson was a GM engineer. the first Owens-Corning team built car was a 1968 built from parts taken off the production line at GM, the second 1969 car was an L-88 car.....the third car the team built (my car) was built from a recovered theft Delorenzo bought from Don Yenko (original engine unknown)...A while back someone here was asking about a "lightweight car" when I asked Delorenzo he said they might have been referring to the aluminum headed cars.....redvetracr
PS: your looking at the third Owens-Corning built car as it was when GM styline engineer Randy Wittene painted it for Delorenzo...it won the 50th anniversary race at the AVUS track in Berlin...Germany (racing against the best "ringers" the Porsche factory had)
pic Howard.
11-25-2007, 01:03 PM
#225
Team Owner
Member Since: Nov 2004
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[QUOTE=parkerracing;1562894492]Maybe Kevin was refering to this car when using the term "lightweight"?
It would seem the ultimate mod to lighten up my '77 down to 2.000lbs
It would seem the ultimate mod to lighten up my '77 down to 2.000lbs
11-26-2007, 03:27 AM
#226
Race Director
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: YANKEES UNIVERSE 70 454-LS5 500 ft-lbs Torque
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In January of 1969 4 pre production "service package" open chamber head L88's left the factory and the Owens Corning and Dave Heinz,Or costanzo L88's were 2 of them.These 4 cars were referred to as "lightweight' and were very significant and the Delorenzo L88 was REAL.The production open chambered L88's were not released until June.As far as Kevin Mackay,whether you like him or not the guy knows his stuff when it comes to these Vette Racers.
11-26-2007, 04:55 AM
#227
Melting Slicks
For the record, I like everybody.
Awesome information! For Fun, Does anyone have a picture of the Or Costanzo car? Or any of them?
Also were they totally complete cars, interiors, heaters ect...? Perhaps due to the special nature of the delivery steps could be skipped in regards to the special nature of the customers taking delivery.
Awesome information! For Fun, Does anyone have a picture of the Or Costanzo car? Or any of them?
Also were they totally complete cars, interiors, heaters ect...? Perhaps due to the special nature of the delivery steps could be skipped in regards to the special nature of the customers taking delivery.
11-26-2007, 05:56 AM
#228
Safety Car
In January of 1969 4 pre production "service package" open chamber head L88's left the factory and the Owens Corning and Dave Heinz,Or costanzo L88's were 2 of them.These 4 cars were referred to as "lightweight' and were very significant and the Delorenzo L88 was REAL.The production open chambered L88's were not released until June.As far as Kevin Mackay,whether you like him or not the guy knows his stuff when it comes to these Vette Racers.
I live pretty close to Kevin Mackay's place and found him and Chris Tucci (a guy that used to work for him) to be very knowledgeable and helpful. When I was enquiring about stuff they did for the #4 car, they where very fourthcoming with information and where very friendly, which I believe was genuine...I wasnt trying to buy anything.
And yes , I am also enjoying the history and the pictures in this thread
Last edited by lvrpool32; 11-26-2007 at 07:16 AM.
11-26-2007, 07:14 AM
#229
Melting Slicks
Thread revived in true form...
Those are some superb photographs, and a treasure trove of days gone by. Any information on the many photos transferred here from that link would be wonderful. Just a taste, as I have to get some sleep...
Those are some superb photographs, and a treasure trove of days gone by. Any information on the many photos transferred here from that link would be wonderful. Just a taste, as I have to get some sleep...
Last edited by international blue; 11-26-2007 at 07:21 AM.
11-26-2007, 07:18 AM
#230
Melting Slicks
11-26-2007, 04:07 PM
#231
Race Director
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BTW the #8 Herb Caplan L88 is one of the 4 "service package" open chamber head L88's.The other was ordered by John Paul and the other 2 were Or Costanzo/Dave Heinz,and Tony Delorenzo.
11-26-2007, 04:18 PM
#232
Race Director
Member Since: Feb 2003
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For the record, I like everybody.
Awesome information! For Fun, Does anyone have a picture of the Or Costanzo car? Or any of them?
Also were they totally complete cars, interiors, heaters ect...? Perhaps due to the special nature of the delivery steps could be skipped in regards to the special nature of the customers taking delivery.
Awesome information! For Fun, Does anyone have a picture of the Or Costanzo car? Or any of them?
Also were they totally complete cars, interiors, heaters ect...? Perhaps due to the special nature of the delivery steps could be skipped in regards to the special nature of the customers taking delivery.
11-26-2007, 06:44 PM
#233
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: Richmond Kentucky
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2022 Corvette of the Year Finalist -- Modified
2021 C2 of the Year Winner - Modified
2021 C1 of the Year Winner - Modified
2020 Corvette of the Year (stock)
C2 of Year Winner (stock) 2019
2017 C1 of the Year Finalist
11-26-2007, 08:57 PM
#234
Senior Member since 1492
11-26-2007, 09:19 PM
#236
Senior Member since 1492
11-26-2007, 09:35 PM
#237
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: Richmond Kentucky
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2022 Corvette of the Year Finalist -- Modified
2021 C2 of the Year Winner - Modified
2021 C1 of the Year Winner - Modified
2020 Corvette of the Year (stock)
C2 of Year Winner (stock) 2019
2017 C1 of the Year Finalist
This was a 4 tube into a flat rectangular collector which then went into the 4 inch round side pipe. This may have been an original set of headers made by Bill Thomas for GM. I SURE would like to have a set!!!!!!
11-26-2007, 11:43 PM
#238
Race Director
redvetracr
11-27-2007, 09:45 AM
#239
Melting Slicks
Dr. L-88 Those are the 1967 "N14" style headers as described in the 1963-67 Noland Adams Corvette Technical Restoration Guide page 422.
The 1967 L-88 "as far as can be determined from Chevrolet production records, each of the 20 1967 L-88 cars produced was available with a regular exhaust system or N14 a unique system complete with headers and a slightly baffled side mounted exhaust."
Now I have seen some 68 cars with them, the Sunray DX, or the DeLorenzo car for instance. The question becomes, did they make exactly 20 sets, and then get rid of the ones that did not go with 67's to the dealer on the first 68's? OR Did the early 68 have the same header, meaning more than 20 sets...for as far as I know none were "over the counter", until the definitive "Kustom" headers were subcontracted and offered with the L-88 package or to racers before Hooker did the job a little bit better....
As far as I know they would have to be custom made, originals for these being closer to 20K I have heard.
The 68 Kustom header, built in larger numbers for over the counter sales as well seems to be "worth" anywhere from $2,000 to 4,000 dollars. Pro-Team has a set they have been trying to sell on ebay...
JOE
PS Dr L88 Would love to get some details about your car, if you could...
The 1967 L-88 "as far as can be determined from Chevrolet production records, each of the 20 1967 L-88 cars produced was available with a regular exhaust system or N14 a unique system complete with headers and a slightly baffled side mounted exhaust."
Now I have seen some 68 cars with them, the Sunray DX, or the DeLorenzo car for instance. The question becomes, did they make exactly 20 sets, and then get rid of the ones that did not go with 67's to the dealer on the first 68's? OR Did the early 68 have the same header, meaning more than 20 sets...for as far as I know none were "over the counter", until the definitive "Kustom" headers were subcontracted and offered with the L-88 package or to racers before Hooker did the job a little bit better....
As far as I know they would have to be custom made, originals for these being closer to 20K I have heard.
The 68 Kustom header, built in larger numbers for over the counter sales as well seems to be "worth" anywhere from $2,000 to 4,000 dollars. Pro-Team has a set they have been trying to sell on ebay...
JOE
PS Dr L88 Would love to get some details about your car, if you could...
Last edited by international blue; 11-27-2007 at 11:00 AM.
11-27-2007, 10:19 AM
#240
Melting Slicks
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