Derrick Reynolds

My intention for this thread seems to have been lost along the way. The car was inspected "properly" before I paid my money. Of course "properly" then becomes the operative word as any inspection and opinion are only as good as the knowledge and experience of the inspector, and we also met the folks who helped us inspect it while we were all standing in the middle of a field in semi-rural central PA. Anyway, my intention was just to relate to those who would understand how much a 9 can look like an 8 when straining to see something with lots of stuff in the way etc. That was all.

I disclosed a fair amount about the car as I know people get interested in that stuff (I like reading about other people's cars and their buying experiences, I also like to see pictures of the cars, their components, their numbers and codes etc. I assume I am not alone here), I am not particularly looking for opinions on anything, but a lot of the input here has been interesting and helpful and I appreciate it. At this point, my wife is satisfied that what we think happened in PA, actually happened, and how can a man argue when his wife says she is satisfied? As a result, the project of reviewing the numbers with my wife has concluded.

Anyway, if anyone's curiousity is such that they would like to see more detail of my stamp pad let me know. Taking cooperative pictures with my wife has always proven frustrating for a variety of reasons. However, I have some nice astrophotography pictures that my daughter and I have worked on, so I have greater optimism that the two of us could get something better than what I already posted (which basically looks like a stamp pad that looks like it has some numbers on it).

Thanks,

PK

Red70vette

You need to tell your wife to chill out. It is too late to dispute the numbers matching claim on the car now anyway. The term "numbers matching" is very vague and means many things to many people so it is very difficult to define let alone claim you were ripped off. Some people even believe a restamped engine is numbers matching. Go figure.

As far as dates are concerned GM was on strike in late 69 so 70 production did not begin until December. 69 production continued to get rid of all the inventory of 69 parts including 427 engines. 1970 was the first year for the 454 so it is concieveable that engines were built and stockpiled at the plant awaiting start of production. New engines could have been piled on top of old engines until the backlog was eliminated. In any case 6 months is acceptable dating per the NCRS and other judging organizations so you are OK.

Derrick Reynolds

My wife is comfortable with everything now, thanks.

I don't want to say much about the seller because I like to respect people's privacy, I have never mentioned this board, and the Corvette world is fairly small. But, we had a detailed discussion of what "numbers matching" meant before I even made an offer.

vettebuyer6369

See, the problem is it's not a vague term, and also the fact is a re-stamped enigine is numbers matching. Go figure.

I'm not getting into the usual argument, but the Reader's Digest version is that the numbers on the engine match the VIN. Period. Numbers matching does not mean original, or correct, it means they match, whether they are re-stamped or otherwise. People who say otherwise are not operating under "vague" terms, they are either incorrect or intentionally misrepresenting the car in question.

To the OP, good for you that you and the seller nailed down exactly what number matching means to the 2 of you because even though there is absolutely nothing vague about what it means, many sellers pretend otherwise.

remanking

Seems kinda long, or funny to me. Don't mean to rain on your parade but my late '69 has a 512 block that was cast not too much before yours on 10/22/69, and the motor build date is 11/04/69 with a car build date of 11/20/69.
Now they still built '69's for another month after my car, so I would think a late Dec '69 car would have a casting date of mid to late November. Don't know why your block would be sitting around for a few months while other got put into '69 cars. But it is possible...

remanking

Redvet70 is incorrect. The GM strike was in the Spring of '69 not late '69. In late '69 they were going full bore to catch up, hence the long (into Dec) run of 1969 models. Most all the cast vs build dates I've seen for this period are fairly close together.
I did look at the stamp pad picture and it seems to look legit. Broach marks and such.

PeteZO6

I love this stuff! I attended a seminar given by Noland Adams this past summer at Lake Tahoe. I'm sure Noland doesn't need any introduction to this crowd, but if you don't know of him, he's an early Corvette guru, and he lives nearby .

He talked about this very subject, that is casting dates, engine build dates, and car build dates. He mentioned that big blocks were cast and assembled in Tonawanda, NY, and small blocks in the St. Louis foundry - not the same location as Corvette assembly. So right there you have some delay - shipping car-lot loads of engines to the Corvette assembly plant.

He told us how these were mass production factories where nobody had any sense of keeping anything in order, so blocks (and heads and intake manifolds, and so on) were just product that had to be spit out. Nobody was keeping track of casting dates on parts; they were building engines and any part that came along that fit the need was used.

On top of all of that, if an engine part was defective but repairable, it was put aside until the pile of blocks (or heads or whatever) got too large to walk around, those parts were fixed. There was no constraint on this, it was just when the plant people felt it was time to fix the defective stuff in the stockpile.

While I'm not a member of NCRS, I understand where they are coming from, and I respect that. They certainly know what Noland was telling us about, and that's why they allow a 6 month "window" on the dates on these parts.

Back in the day, nobody thought anything about numbers matching, or originality, From GM's perspective, they were turning out widgets. From an owner's perspective, it was a car, a cool one to be sure, but nobody took any notice of any of the stuff we agonize over now. If say, a water pump failed, you took the car to a Chevrolet dealer and had it replaced under warranty (5 years or 50,000 miles - no kidding!) Nobody thought about saving that old water pump for future "all original" status. They were just cars.

Cheers,
Pete

R1234

Good stuff Pete! Drive the cars enjoy them for what they are. If you got one of those "numbers matching" cars great! If you don't that's cool too!

Mike Ward

This post surprises me. I went back and read the initial discussion- you made no mention of having had a 3rd party inspect it prior to purchase and seemed to be half convinced (buyers remorse) that you might have been screwed over. If it had been inspected to your satisfaction, why would your wife still have doubts and talk you into rechecking the numbers?

You yourself stated that you have limited experience with numbers and particularly stamp pads. Most of the posters here were trying to help you out with establishing the authenticity of your engine- which still has not been done.

Guess of all us were off base.

Mark_Milner

No., matching numbers mean they match. Period. Nothing about being original.

Every restamp is matching. Why restamp not to match?




Casting dates are often VERY hard to read. One way to tell is to pull the pan. The 454 block will have indentions cast in the lower section of the block to clear the rods as the crank turns. The 427 block won't.

So if it is a 11/68 block, then it won't have them. If it is a 11/69 block (454), it will.


Once upon a time, I'd say "welcome to the club. Almost every first time Corvette owner gets screwed." But now, that involves a large sum of funds which are sorely missed today.

$200 to an expert to check it is cheap insurance. BEFORE the sale.

400hp427vette

They were still building 427's in 11/69 due to the strike, Isn't it possible for a 427 to have the indentions on late build blocks or did they remachine blocks when the 70 year build began because late 69 427's and 70 454 blocks shared the same casting number the (512) block

Mark_Milner

First off, a 512 block was only made after late '69 to incorporate the 454. Yes, they made 427s out of these blocks, too, but none in 11/68. So if it is a 512 block, it has to be 11/69, or someone has done funny things with glue and sand or welding.

Second, if it has no indentions, there is no way it could be a 454 in your car. Not originally.

All you are asking is if it is an 11/68 or an 11/69 casting. The indentions will tell you. If there are none, something is wrong. If they are there, then it had to be late '69 when built.

Nothing in this says whether it is original to your car or if it was original to any '70 Corvette.

Red70vette

This only proves my point. Many people relate matching numbers to mean that it is the original drive train. Many others feel that if the numbers match even if they are counterfeit that is fine. If I bought a car with a restamped block without knowing it was restamped I would feel I was ripped off. I don't see why someone would restamp a block unless they were trying to decieve someone into believing it was the original block. Unless each agree on what they are talking about you could have a big problem. Cars with original drive trains are generally worth more than a car that has been built to look like it should if it were original.

Derrick Reynolds

Well then, I guess we are even, because this post surprises me!

As I have already explained, not only did we meet the seller for the first time in our lives that day, but we met the two folks who helped me inspect the car prior to making an offer, and inspections being only as good as the inspector, my wife was nervous that somehow this had gotten all fouled up. If I was at all uncomfortable about what I was paying for, I would have been happy to keep my checkbook in my pocket, so the fact that I paid tens of thousands of dollars for something is an indication that I was very comfortable with what happened on the day. BUT, I had also owned a Corvette years ago, had been looking at cars for a little more than 2 months, and I had "cheat sheets" with me that I had made up during my search of what all the numbers were supposed to be and where they were located. My wife had none of this experience or information so I can see how from her perspective, the whole thing flew by in what must have seemed like a few minutes (even though it was more like 6 hours). I can fully understand her being a little anxious about it since we paid a lot of money for the car, and all she was asking for was a little comfort that I wasn't just slinging bs when I said the numbers matched. She has reached that comfort level some time ago now.

Determining if a car is "numbers matching" is very straight forward and I am sufficiently competent to do it myself, well, for '68-'72 Corvettes anyway. I asked for more knowledgable help because what I am not competent at is determining if something was likely faked. Since we were at "Corvettes at Carlisle", finding other folks with knowledge and experience with Corvettes wasn't exactly challenging. I re-read my initial post and I don't see what there would indicate either way whether or not I had a 3rd party inspect the car. I also don't see anything I have written that is asking for other opinions on numbers matching or originality of my car. People have asked questions and I have answered them. If that has irritated anyone, I am sorry.

Mike Ward

Not irritated at all, just curious. Maybe the vague reference to standing in a field threw some (many) people off.

This is none of my business and tell me to get stuffed if you like, but did you buy the car with the intent of having one with the original motor, or just a numbers matching example(potential restamp/clone).

As to whether it's straight forward to determine if a car is 'numbers matching' or not I guess depends on the definition of the term and the individual person. If so, the subject sure gets a lot of traffic on this and every other web site from confused people

Derrick Reynolds

Of course I wanted a car with its original engine. But that is the trick, isn't it? I am not a polyanna, and I know that just because the numbers match, doesn't necessarily mean that it is the original engine. But of course, if the numbers don't match, then you know it isn't the original engine, so checking the numbers is a good starting point. Like I said in the previous post, determining that the numbers match is a straight-forward process that I am comfortable with my own competence to perform. Determining if the car likely has its original engine is something I am not competent with, so I asked for help. In the opinion of the folks who inspected the car for me, the car has its original engine. Could this be a very well-done fake that fooled the folks I met at Carlisle? Absolutely. Could the folks at Carlisle not known the difference between an original engine and a skateboard? Well, they would have to be first class bull artists, but I guess it is possible. But even highly knowledgable and experienced people miss things sometimes and make mistakes, so there is always risk.

Maybe I am jaded, or realistic, but when someone says "numbers matching", I take it to mean just that unless something else has been agreed. Meaning the VIN derivative stamping matches the VIN and the engine assembly date is shortly before the build date etc. etc. etc. There is zero doubt left in my mind that the numbers match on my car, I have been through them all 3 times now. People do WANT "numbers matching" to mean "original engine", but unfortunately, the folks out there re-stamping blocks have made sure that it will never mean that again.

In the case of my purchase, the seller gave me a detailed description of what "numbers matching" meant for the purpose of that transaction, and the seller was willing to stand behind that description, meaning they would take the car back if it was discovered that the description was not accurate. I bought the car from the second owner, so could they have been "duped" when they bought the car and it is an elaborate fake? Could they just be a liar? Yes and yes. But I doubt it. Infinite skepticism will insure that I would never buy one of these cars. Engine stamp pads can be faked, documentation can be faked, previous owners could be liars etc. The only cars on the road that I am SURE have their original engines are the two DDs that my wife and I bought new. IMO, in the end, each person has to determine what is "acceptable risk". The particular car I bought exceeded my level of acceptable risk so I sleep just fine at night and I don't have any buyer's remorse.

toddalin

My 1st day production '70 350/350 (#131) had an engine casting date of L129 or December 12, 1969.

:o

early shark

PKguitar,

Maybe I can assist you with some typical assembly date sequencing on 1970 LS5 Corvettes.
I see that your car is vin # 7541, I had two '70's that fall before and after yours. One is vin # 7272 with a block casting of B 20 70 with a pad stamping of T0306CZU. The other is vin # 8373 with a block casting of B 18 70 with a pad stamping of T0318CZU.
I also have the intake manifold and head casting dates as well for these cars, if you need to know.

Mike Ward

It's the 'etc etc etc.' that gets people confused. What about head casting numbers? Intakes? Exhaust? Distributor? Transmission stamp ?(that has a partial VIN BTW!) rear end? etc. etc. etc.

Ask 10 people the defintion of 'numbers' matching' and you'll get 12 different answers.

Derrick Reynolds

Agreed. Seller represented that the block, trans and rear were original to the car and specifically stated that there are other parts on the car that are NOT original. This was smart because I knew enough about what parts were supposed to be there to know at a glance that the brake master cylinder and the carbeurator were not original to the car. I wasn't looking for a trailer queen, I also didn't pay anywhere near what I would expect to pay if the car were anywhere in the same realm as a trailer queen.