Can you guys look over a '72 I'm thinking of getting?
08-25-2011, 04:05 PM
#21
Drifting
Engine overheating as previously mentioned as well as cockpit getting hot/warm. Warm feet and floors is a typical issue for a C3...Hot water in heater core, open kick panel vents pulling heat from engine compartment, bad gaskets around heater core, missing trans hump gasket, cracked shifter boot, lack of insulation on firewall and floor, etc etc...
08-25-2011, 04:12 PM
#22
Drifting
Member Since: Oct 2002
Location: Titusville FL
Posts: 1,748
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My wife and I learned first hand about the warm (more like hot) feet syndrome on our first cruise. After about 35 minutes, our feet were very toasty, which is something you don't need in FL, especially on a warm Spring day
08-25-2011, 04:31 PM
#23
Team Owner
A couple of comments:
Interior: A car needing carpets, seats and steering wheel is not consistent with a 91,000 mile garaged car.
Hood: What does the original hood look like? If it is rough, and/or not painted the same color, it has very little value.
Electricals: What kind of "compression tool" is needed to fix the horn on a C3? I have never heard of this. I have been through the horn circuit on my previous car and it was straight forward, no special tools required. Also all the dash lights are out, and he says it is a ground wire, this doesn't make sense to me as in my head, I can't picture how one ground wire could take out the entire interior, but I admit to not being an expert here. The whole electrical story doesn't pass the smell test IMO.
Cooling: The waterpump and thermostat were replaced and the job was abandoned with a coolant leak still active? At best, Bubba was here. At worst, we could be talking about a serious engine problem. Some leakage of cabin heat is common in old C3s, but if so much heat is coming back as to make the cabin uncomfortable after a half hour drive, there must be direct air leakage from the engine bay into the cabin. This is unsafe, and potentially deadly. The idea of having to stop on the way home to let the car cool down should be a red flag the size of Wyoming that there is a serious problem here, and I suspect there is more than one.
Engine: Lots of non-original stuff here, and Bubba looks to have left several calling cards. I can't tell for sure if there is a belt on the AC compressor or not, if not, you can bet the AC needs about a grand to get it working again. No shielding, AIR pump missing, some ugly bling alternator, one of the butt-ugliest air cleaners I have ever seen in my life, I hope my point is made here that to call the engine bay "underwhelming" would be a kindness.
Areas that likely have problems, but haven't even been discussed or pictured: Rust on the underside, suspension problems, braking problems, does the e-brake work, vacuum system, and I am sure I could think of half a dozen more if I put my mind to it.
Come on, the guy is driving a car with no horn or dash lights, leaking coolant, getting gassed out of the cabin in 30 minutes or less, can't stray far from home without letting the car cool down? It's your bike man, and I don't want to tell anybody what to do, but read the writing on the wall!
Interior: A car needing carpets, seats and steering wheel is not consistent with a 91,000 mile garaged car.
Hood: What does the original hood look like? If it is rough, and/or not painted the same color, it has very little value.
Electricals: What kind of "compression tool" is needed to fix the horn on a C3? I have never heard of this. I have been through the horn circuit on my previous car and it was straight forward, no special tools required. Also all the dash lights are out, and he says it is a ground wire, this doesn't make sense to me as in my head, I can't picture how one ground wire could take out the entire interior, but I admit to not being an expert here. The whole electrical story doesn't pass the smell test IMO.
Cooling: The waterpump and thermostat were replaced and the job was abandoned with a coolant leak still active? At best, Bubba was here. At worst, we could be talking about a serious engine problem. Some leakage of cabin heat is common in old C3s, but if so much heat is coming back as to make the cabin uncomfortable after a half hour drive, there must be direct air leakage from the engine bay into the cabin. This is unsafe, and potentially deadly. The idea of having to stop on the way home to let the car cool down should be a red flag the size of Wyoming that there is a serious problem here, and I suspect there is more than one.
Engine: Lots of non-original stuff here, and Bubba looks to have left several calling cards. I can't tell for sure if there is a belt on the AC compressor or not, if not, you can bet the AC needs about a grand to get it working again. No shielding, AIR pump missing, some ugly bling alternator, one of the butt-ugliest air cleaners I have ever seen in my life, I hope my point is made here that to call the engine bay "underwhelming" would be a kindness.
Areas that likely have problems, but haven't even been discussed or pictured: Rust on the underside, suspension problems, braking problems, does the e-brake work, vacuum system, and I am sure I could think of half a dozen more if I put my mind to it.
Come on, the guy is driving a car with no horn or dash lights, leaking coolant, getting gassed out of the cabin in 30 minutes or less, can't stray far from home without letting the car cool down? It's your bike man, and I don't want to tell anybody what to do, but read the writing on the wall!
08-25-2011, 04:57 PM
#24
Melting Slicks
A couple of comments:
Interior: A car needing carpets, seats and steering wheel is not consistent with a 91,000 mile garaged car.
Hood: What does the original hood look like? If it is rough, and/or not painted the same color, it has very little value.
Electricals: What kind of "compression tool" is needed to fix the horn on a C3? I have never heard of this. I have been through the horn circuit on my previous car and it was straight forward, no special tools required. Also all the dash lights are out, and he says it is a ground wire, this doesn't make sense to me as in my head, I can't picture how one ground wire could take out the entire interior, but I admit to not being an expert here. The whole electrical story doesn't pass the smell test IMO.
Cooling: The waterpump and thermostat were replaced and the job was abandoned with a coolant leak still active? At best, Bubba was here. At worst, we could be talking about a serious engine problem. Some leakage of cabin heat is common in old C3s, but if so much heat is coming back as to make the cabin uncomfortable after a half hour drive, there must be direct air leakage from the engine bay into the cabin. This is unsafe, and potentially deadly. The idea of having to stop on the way home to let the car cool down should be a red flag the size of Wyoming that there is a serious problem here, and I suspect there is more than one.
Engine: Lots of non-original stuff here, and Bubba looks to have left several calling cards. I can't tell for sure if there is a belt on the AC compressor or not, if not, you can bet the AC needs about a grand to get it working again. No shielding, AIR pump missing, some ugly bling alternator, one of the butt-ugliest air cleaners I have ever seen in my life, I hope my point is made here that to call the engine bay "underwhelming" would be a kindness.
Areas that likely have problems, but haven't even been discussed or pictured: Rust on the underside, suspension problems, braking problems, does the e-brake work, vacuum system, and I am sure I could think of half a dozen more if I put my mind to it.
Come on, the guy is driving a car with no horn or dash lights, leaking coolant, getting gassed out of the cabin in 30 minutes or less, can't stray far from home without letting the car cool down? It's your bike man, and I don't want to tell anybody what to do, but read the writing on the wall!
Interior: A car needing carpets, seats and steering wheel is not consistent with a 91,000 mile garaged car.
Hood: What does the original hood look like? If it is rough, and/or not painted the same color, it has very little value.
Electricals: What kind of "compression tool" is needed to fix the horn on a C3? I have never heard of this. I have been through the horn circuit on my previous car and it was straight forward, no special tools required. Also all the dash lights are out, and he says it is a ground wire, this doesn't make sense to me as in my head, I can't picture how one ground wire could take out the entire interior, but I admit to not being an expert here. The whole electrical story doesn't pass the smell test IMO.
Cooling: The waterpump and thermostat were replaced and the job was abandoned with a coolant leak still active? At best, Bubba was here. At worst, we could be talking about a serious engine problem. Some leakage of cabin heat is common in old C3s, but if so much heat is coming back as to make the cabin uncomfortable after a half hour drive, there must be direct air leakage from the engine bay into the cabin. This is unsafe, and potentially deadly. The idea of having to stop on the way home to let the car cool down should be a red flag the size of Wyoming that there is a serious problem here, and I suspect there is more than one.
Engine: Lots of non-original stuff here, and Bubba looks to have left several calling cards. I can't tell for sure if there is a belt on the AC compressor or not, if not, you can bet the AC needs about a grand to get it working again. No shielding, AIR pump missing, some ugly bling alternator, one of the butt-ugliest air cleaners I have ever seen in my life, I hope my point is made here that to call the engine bay "underwhelming" would be a kindness.
Areas that likely have problems, but haven't even been discussed or pictured: Rust on the underside, suspension problems, braking problems, does the e-brake work, vacuum system, and I am sure I could think of half a dozen more if I put my mind to it.
Come on, the guy is driving a car with no horn or dash lights, leaking coolant, getting gassed out of the cabin in 30 minutes or less, can't stray far from home without letting the car cool down? It's your bike man, and I don't want to tell anybody what to do, but read the writing on the wall!
You have covered just about everything. Not that great of a car for that kind of money
08-25-2011, 06:14 PM
#25
Racer
Thread Starter
This is why I love this forum! You guys are very honest and can pick up on things that I, as a newby, never would. The sellers suggestion to stop on the way home and let it cool down was the red flag for me too. If I were to have told him the same thing about my bike it would have meant some serious engine issues.
So, I'm gonna take a pass on this car for right now. I'm headed to Carlisle tomorrow morning. I'll take a look at some of the cars for sale and if I find something in my price range I like, I'll try to find someone to look at it with me. I've pretty much talked myself into keeping my Harley at least until next spring. I think someone on here said there were banks available to do financing so I may go that route if I find something decent.
Thanks for all the input and helping me keep my emotions out of this purchase. You guys rock!
So, I'm gonna take a pass on this car for right now. I'm headed to Carlisle tomorrow morning. I'll take a look at some of the cars for sale and if I find something in my price range I like, I'll try to find someone to look at it with me. I've pretty much talked myself into keeping my Harley at least until next spring. I think someone on here said there were banks available to do financing so I may go that route if I find something decent.
Thanks for all the input and helping me keep my emotions out of this purchase. You guys rock!
08-25-2011, 06:23 PM
#26
Drifting
This is why I love this forum! You guys are very honest and can pick up on things that I, as a newby, never would. The sellers suggestion to stop on the way home and let it cool down was the red flag for me too. If I were to have told him the same thing about my bike it would have meant some serious engine issues.
So, I'm gonna take a pass on this car for right now. I'm headed to Carlisle tomorrow morning. I'll take a look at some of the cars for sale and if I find something in my price range I like, I'll try to find someone to look at it with me. I've pretty much talked myself into keeping my Harley at least until next spring. I think someone on here said there were banks available to do financing so I may go that route if I find something decent.
Thanks for all the input and helping me keep my emotions out of this purchase. You guys rock!
So, I'm gonna take a pass on this car for right now. I'm headed to Carlisle tomorrow morning. I'll take a look at some of the cars for sale and if I find something in my price range I like, I'll try to find someone to look at it with me. I've pretty much talked myself into keeping my Harley at least until next spring. I think someone on here said there were banks available to do financing so I may go that route if I find something decent.
Thanks for all the input and helping me keep my emotions out of this purchase. You guys rock!
08-25-2011, 06:53 PM
#27
Racer
Member Since: Dec 2009
Location: Glendale AZ
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take the problems with a grain of salt. All Corvettes of this age will have "undisclosed issues".
It's a nice looking, very non-original driver quality car.
The horn not working is pretty typical.
Cracks and bubbles in the paint are also pretty typical.
All of these cars get hot floorboards that you have to sometimes pull over to get away from on a long trip. There are aftermarket insulation kits just for that problem.
Heater core leak is also very typical in any car this age. It's a pain, but not very expensive to fix.
The dash lights could be anything from the harness to just the dimmer switch. That's the only part that is a real concern.
Other than that, these problems are what you're probably going to find on just about any driver quality C3. This is exactly the kind of car you'll find for the price range you're looking for, it's a good car for the price range.
It's a nice looking, very non-original driver quality car.
The horn not working is pretty typical.
Cracks and bubbles in the paint are also pretty typical.
All of these cars get hot floorboards that you have to sometimes pull over to get away from on a long trip. There are aftermarket insulation kits just for that problem.
Heater core leak is also very typical in any car this age. It's a pain, but not very expensive to fix.
The dash lights could be anything from the harness to just the dimmer switch. That's the only part that is a real concern.
Other than that, these problems are what you're probably going to find on just about any driver quality C3. This is exactly the kind of car you'll find for the price range you're looking for, it's a good car for the price range.
Last edited by volition; 08-25-2011 at 07:02 PM.
08-25-2011, 08:18 PM
#28
Team Owner
Medic...
My post was meant to get your attention...not to insult you. It's just that your 'situation' is very common and it takes a "jostle" to get someone out of the "WOW! It's a Stingray!" mental state. You are about to make an important decision. Get your game-face on, go have a look, don't let on that you are interested (if you still are) and go about the business of a cool, collected analysis of the car's condition and its worth to you. Take your time and check it all out. Know what works and what doesn't...take notes as you go.
Make an offer if you want, and don't be shy about throwing out a low number, if that's all you think it's worth. Haggle up to what the max you figured you would offer. If you get the car, THEN you can put the "C3 gleam" back in your eyes. Otherwise, just play it cool.
My post was meant to get your attention...not to insult you. It's just that your 'situation' is very common and it takes a "jostle" to get someone out of the "WOW! It's a Stingray!" mental state. You are about to make an important decision. Get your game-face on, go have a look, don't let on that you are interested (if you still are) and go about the business of a cool, collected analysis of the car's condition and its worth to you. Take your time and check it all out. Know what works and what doesn't...take notes as you go.
Make an offer if you want, and don't be shy about throwing out a low number, if that's all you think it's worth. Haggle up to what the max you figured you would offer. If you get the car, THEN you can put the "C3 gleam" back in your eyes. Otherwise, just play it cool.
08-25-2011, 08:40 PM
#29
Racer
Thread Starter
Take the problems with a grain of salt. All Corvettes of this age will have "undisclosed issues".
It's a nice looking, very non-original driver quality car.
The horn not working is pretty typical.
Cracks and bubbles in the paint are also pretty typical.
All of these cars get hot floorboards that you have to sometimes pull over to get away from on a long trip. There are aftermarket insulation kits just for that problem.
Heater core leak is also very typical in any car this age. It's a pain, but not very expensive to fix.
The dash lights could be anything from the harness to just the dimmer switch. That's the only part that is a real concern.
Other than that, these problems are what you're probably going to find on just about any driver quality C3. This is exactly the kind of car you'll find for the price range you're looking for, it's a good car for the price range.
It's a nice looking, very non-original driver quality car.
The horn not working is pretty typical.
Cracks and bubbles in the paint are also pretty typical.
All of these cars get hot floorboards that you have to sometimes pull over to get away from on a long trip. There are aftermarket insulation kits just for that problem.
Heater core leak is also very typical in any car this age. It's a pain, but not very expensive to fix.
The dash lights could be anything from the harness to just the dimmer switch. That's the only part that is a real concern.
Other than that, these problems are what you're probably going to find on just about any driver quality C3. This is exactly the kind of car you'll find for the price range you're looking for, it's a good car for the price range.
08-25-2011, 08:54 PM
#30
Racer
Member Since: Dec 2009
Location: Glendale AZ
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are those who buy one to modify to our liking and/or drive the car a lot.
Then there are those who like cars to be meticulously correct to how the car would have looked when it left the factory.
This car would suit the first type of owner well, but would make the 2nd type of owner want to vomit.
The car is right for the price range. The issues it has are not unusual for these cars in any way. You just have to decide if it's the right car for YOU.
Last edited by volition; 08-25-2011 at 08:59 PM.
08-25-2011, 08:58 PM
#31
Instructor
Great thread, lots of good info here, especially the pictures of the mount bolts. You guys deffinitley demonstrated how you have to look at a car and analyze every issue and look at them with your brain and not your heart. Easier said than done.
08-25-2011, 09:04 PM
#32
Racer
Thread Starter
Mostly because there are two different types of owners on this forum.
There are those who buy one to modify to our liking and/or drive the car a lot.
Then there are those who like cars to be meticulously correct to how the car would have looked when it left the factory.
This car would suit the first type of owner well, but would make the 2nd type of owner want to vomit.
The car is right for the price range. The issues it has are not unusual for these cars in any way. You just have to decide if it's the right car for YOU.
There are those who buy one to modify to our liking and/or drive the car a lot.
Then there are those who like cars to be meticulously correct to how the car would have looked when it left the factory.
This car would suit the first type of owner well, but would make the 2nd type of owner want to vomit.
The car is right for the price range. The issues it has are not unusual for these cars in any way. You just have to decide if it's the right car for YOU.
08-25-2011, 09:22 PM
#33
Racer
Member Since: Dec 2009
Location: Glendale AZ
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You'll find that keeping a Corvette "functional" is far cheaper than keeping a Corvette "correct. We'll use the valve covers as an example. The $30 Chrome valve covers on that car work 100% as well as the originals. If you wanted to follow the "correct" route, you'd be forking out $400+ for a set of new "Correct" valve covers with correct stickers.
This applies to just about the entire car. Sometimes whether you want a date stamped into a part makes the difference between a few bucks and a few hundred bucks.
Like I said though the issues it has are pretty normal. Many, many owners have added the hot water shutoffs because these cars get hot down in the footwells pretty fast. As for leaks? Well, they pretty much all leak something and if it's not now it will be in the future. It's just the nature of the car being as old as they are coupled with the sometimes poor GM designs. The horn is also a giant turd on these cars that usually breaks because someone forgets to put a part back in. There are lots of diagrams and help files on the issue again it's not unusual.
Take it for a drive and see for yourself. If you're worried about it overheating just take it for a longer drive. Just remember, these engines are iron blocks AND heads and can tolerate heat very well. Normal operating temperature is around 200 but the engines will live life just fine at 210. On older cars this would sometimes look like the car was overheating to most drivers.
The dash lights not working could be simple or could be expensive. That's not a typical issue so I can't quote you on that might run to fix.
Provided it runs and drives as good as it looks, I see no issues that should prevent you from getting this car. It's in very good condition compared to cars currently on the market for this price range. In fact I'd rank it better than about 75% of the chrome bumpers I've seen for sale for under 20k.
Last edited by volition; 08-25-2011 at 09:27 PM.
08-25-2011, 09:36 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
As I had said earlier, this is a nice car for the trade that you said you couldn't get 13 grand for the bike. (No calls at all) So now how much are you really paying for this car if you go for it? Less than 13 for sure!Like I said no rust issues and paper good, this is not a bad deal at all.
08-25-2011, 09:50 PM
#35
Sorry, dont mean to steal the thread, but gotta say I love those wheels and tires........what are they??
08-26-2011, 07:13 AM
#36
Burning Brakes
Never, ever come on this forum with a less than 98 point NCRS documented car and expect people here to tell you to buy it. It is amazing, but I really don't remember anyone buying a car after one of these types of posts. Luckily not everyone does this to themselves, or we would have a stagnant market as there are maybe a few handfuls of cars in the world good enough for people to give their stamp of approval on.
I am not sure what your budget actually is, but just a word of caution, finding a perfect C3 that needs nothing for a 10-15k price range is actually impossible. These cars are 30-40 years old. Original owners changed parts on them. Yes, parts do go bad. Owners update and upgrade parts as more modern technology and better aftermarket parts became available. The car you are looking at, if it has no rust is really not bad. I am certain if he is asking that, getting a few thousand off is more than negotiable. Do you really want a perfect, ALL ORIGINAL type car? OR do you just want a car you can tinker on, cruise around in, have fun, look good, and not break the bank? All the CORRECT issues don't matter AT ALL if you are in the second category, which if this is your first C3, is my guess where you would fall. First category people have usually been at this a while and have owned many cars over the years.
This car has issues for sure, sadly, other than those lucky forum members that have perfect cars, there are really not many cars out there that don't need at least $10k put into them easily. These cars are money pits. Just keep that in mind. If the selling price is that cheap, it needs that much. Double your budget if you want to get the NCRS guys on board with your decision. Otherwise, buy a rust free, minimal rust car, and have fun. Not everyone wants a show car. Not everyone needs a points car.
Most of the issues you mention are going to be going on with most cars. All the systems on these cars are usually old since everyone wants everything ALL ORIGINAL, they never want to change a thing. So, to have a nice running car you need to really tear into them, update, and spend some serious money.
I am not sure what your budget actually is, but just a word of caution, finding a perfect C3 that needs nothing for a 10-15k price range is actually impossible. These cars are 30-40 years old. Original owners changed parts on them. Yes, parts do go bad. Owners update and upgrade parts as more modern technology and better aftermarket parts became available. The car you are looking at, if it has no rust is really not bad. I am certain if he is asking that, getting a few thousand off is more than negotiable. Do you really want a perfect, ALL ORIGINAL type car? OR do you just want a car you can tinker on, cruise around in, have fun, look good, and not break the bank? All the CORRECT issues don't matter AT ALL if you are in the second category, which if this is your first C3, is my guess where you would fall. First category people have usually been at this a while and have owned many cars over the years.
This car has issues for sure, sadly, other than those lucky forum members that have perfect cars, there are really not many cars out there that don't need at least $10k put into them easily. These cars are money pits. Just keep that in mind. If the selling price is that cheap, it needs that much. Double your budget if you want to get the NCRS guys on board with your decision. Otherwise, buy a rust free, minimal rust car, and have fun. Not everyone wants a show car. Not everyone needs a points car.
Most of the issues you mention are going to be going on with most cars. All the systems on these cars are usually old since everyone wants everything ALL ORIGINAL, they never want to change a thing. So, to have a nice running car you need to really tear into them, update, and spend some serious money.
08-26-2011, 09:49 AM
#37
Melting Slicks
The coolant leak would be a biggie. Need to know exactly what's going on there.
Dash lights could be a fuse, ground, switch, or other... If not a fuse you may be in for a bit of investigation, mainly labor to track down the issue. Doubt it would be expensive if you do the repair yourself.
When you mention Corvette Club activities are you talking about NCRS or some other?
08-26-2011, 09:40 PM
#38
Team Owner
"dboz" and "volition", have a very different opinion than I have, and that is fine with me.
However, some posts in this thread appear to make some generalizations that I disagree with. Rather than pick on any poster or posters, I will simply clarify my view a little: I am not a "stock ****" type at all, and make no effort to keep my car "perfect" in any way. My car is a "driver", and I wouldn't have it any other way. I have made minor modifications to my car, which I really like, and plan to make more over the course of my ownership. With all that said, IMO, there is a difference between a car that is a "driver" as it sits today, and one that needs a ton of work to be something someone can safely enjoy. IMO, the subject car here is much more like the latter than the former. If you are looking for a project, the car you described sounds like something you could work with, but I still think there is enough writing on the wall that this car comes with yacht-load of problems that I suspect there are better cars out there for the same, or slightly more, money.
Conversely, if you are looking for a project, and talking about paying project-like prices, that is a 'vette of a different color. Mainly, the paint on the car is cool, and could be very presentable with the repaint of just the hood. If you are up to the challenge of unraveling the electrical and cooling issues, this might be a great car for you.
But like I said, I won't tell you what to do, but I wouldn't trade a Harley worth $15,000 for this car, even with the market value of the Harley being poorly defined. I might pay $8,000 for the car and sell my Harley for what I could get, but I can't say that for sure since I am not in that position.
08-27-2011, 06:38 AM
#39
Racer
Thread Starter
Well, I went to Carlisle yesterday for my first ever Corvettes at Carlisle. What an event! Man, if you were looking for a used part this plaace had to have it. I wasn't looking for parts though. I went to the Corvette Corrall to look for a used Vette. There were plenty there and some really nice cars. Unfortunately, all the nice cars were way out of my price range.
I was mostly looking for a '75-'81 car. I use the 'For Sale" forum here along with CraigsList and eBay as my bench mark for price vs condition. I gotta say, there were a bunch of project cars at the same price or higher that what guys on here are asking for Vettes in very nice condition. Seemed most were over priced.
I'm going to take a good look at this 1972 Vette. I'm going to give it the benifit of doubt and see it in person. I'm going to drive it and take my time and really inspect it. If it appears to have been neglected the I'm going to take a pass. There are 2 Vettes listed on here that appear to be in super condition. Unfortunately, they are both many hours from my home. But, I may bite the bullet and just take a lillte trip...
Again, Thank you for all the input. I think discussions like this are very valuable.
I was mostly looking for a '75-'81 car. I use the 'For Sale" forum here along with CraigsList and eBay as my bench mark for price vs condition. I gotta say, there were a bunch of project cars at the same price or higher that what guys on here are asking for Vettes in very nice condition. Seemed most were over priced.
I'm going to take a good look at this 1972 Vette. I'm going to give it the benifit of doubt and see it in person. I'm going to drive it and take my time and really inspect it. If it appears to have been neglected the I'm going to take a pass. There are 2 Vettes listed on here that appear to be in super condition. Unfortunately, they are both many hours from my home. But, I may bite the bullet and just take a lillte trip...
Again, Thank you for all the input. I think discussions like this are very valuable.
