The future of the NCRS
04-05-2016, 09:25 PM
#101
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
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Also think the high values lots of these old cars wont be at some point in our lifetime. As the crowd dies of so will interest
I am 51 I bought my 69 in 09 and the price of comparable c3 today is higher than I paid, they are going up slowly, I see far more run down "bargain" 74-82's than ever before but that doesn't mean that across the board prices are dropping, and the "bargain" c3's are being bought by modders not purists.
Remember in the 80s when a T bucket cost major bux they can be had for cheap now.
I'm not seeing that, I still see the show queen t buckets fetching high dollars or at least asking for it, I have always wanted one but even a lower end one I would consider is asking more than I have in my 69 c3 so they seem fine to me,
Hope for the purist guys the NCRS sticks around many of them need to learn that not everyone that owns one cares about "correct".
I quit taking mine to cruise nights as EVERY time I parked was a matter of time before some boob had to, unsolicted give me his opinion of what was incorrect. Get a LIFE
do you really believe for one second that if we do not go to a cruise or show because we do not wanna hear some loud mouth d bag that hurts them at all, nope, they do not care, it only hurts us if we wanted to go and do not,
I actually get a kick out of dorks spewing about how I ruined my car, the last time I was at old town in the 69 it still looked good and looked like a 73 the cat we parked next to gets stirring in his lawn chair and spews about us parking next to him, he gets really hot over the fact his car is correct ( nice driver condition 73 ) and ours is a mess of years, my wife is rolling her eyes as I back in, his poor wife is embarrassed as all hell, as we head out to go have a fun time ( unlike him ) and grab a flippers pizza he is still ranting and asks what is he suppose to do...I chime back...when people come to check out our car and ignore yours be sure to point out that yours is the real 73 and ours is just a 69 with the wrong parts....I gave him the thumbs up....he mumbled cuss words.
That was a him problem not a me problem.
So why am I am involved in such threads?
Because threads of these topics are always mixed with posts about the bad apples who trash other peoples cars and some wanting to blame the ncrs or it's members 100%.
I like to point out I do not agree with that and also that we need to make a stand against the bad apples.
I respect the ncrs and their members and do not believe that their members make up the bulk of people who cast the negative veneer on this hobby, how many people in this thread have had a d bag trash their build? how many have seen people do it on this forum?
now how many times have you told that d bag to get a life? likely never,
the stigma of TACO has to die and that starts with each of us doing our part when we see or hear is happen...you all know I do. 
As far as the future of the ncrs, they are not a burger joint who has to sell a fish and chix sandwich to compete and stay in business, they are a car club for people who want a factory correct restoration I admire the fact that they have stayed true to that goal, didn't the ncrs get going in the early 70's when personalized vettes were what almost every vette owner desired? so they survived a harder time than today.
I believe that if they branch out into mods it will hurt not help them, if they die off trying to be what they started out as then that can't be helped it's the changing times but at least they stayed true to their convictions.
Last edited by The13Bats; 04-05-2016 at 09:29 PM.
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530planeman (04-06-2016)
04-06-2016, 08:01 AM
#102
Melting Slicks
It may hurt them. If judging is the game, how do you establish an impartial standard once you enter mod territory? Their current charter, judging against the standard of "as factory built" has a standard for the most part with some variations due to engineering changes, parts shortages, or other. I'd think getting into mods would make them more like car show judging. A matter of taste?
04-06-2016, 11:22 AM
#103
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
Posts: 11,608
Received 772 Likes
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It may hurt them. If judging is the game, how do you establish an impartial standard once you enter mod territory? Their current charter, judging against the standard of "as factory built" has a standard for the most part with some variations due to engineering changes, parts shortages, or other. I'd think getting into mods would make them more like car show judging. A matter of taste?
04-06-2016, 01:45 PM
#105
Team Owner
"Judging" with proper training, experience and reference standards is a better way to run a car show. "Judging" without one or more of those items is a crapshoot, at best.
And, "judging" with reference standards is somewhat subjective as to the "standards" that are applied.
If your car is going to be 'judged', know how that judging is going to be performed in advance of the show. If you are OK with the approach being used, go for it; if you are NOT, either don't go to that show or just enjoy it and know that the entry fee is going to a worthy cause.
Bi+ching about the outcome of a judged show is a total waste of time and casts you as a poor 'sport' and/or bad 'loser'. Don't do it.
And, "judging" with reference standards is somewhat subjective as to the "standards" that are applied.
If your car is going to be 'judged', know how that judging is going to be performed in advance of the show. If you are OK with the approach being used, go for it; if you are NOT, either don't go to that show or just enjoy it and know that the entry fee is going to a worthy cause.
Bi+ching about the outcome of a judged show is a total waste of time and casts you as a poor 'sport' and/or bad 'loser'. Don't do it.
Last edited by 7T1vette; 04-06-2016 at 01:47 PM.
04-06-2016, 11:05 PM
#106
Instructor
I'm a car guy. We are all car guys, and there are new generations of car guys too. Every car guy has their own taste and style, things they like and things they don't. Trying to be the ultimate arbiter of taste is always a losing proposition.
My favorite ever all time car show was a once a week get together in the summer at an old grocery store. The reason is that you could see all sorts of things. My favorite car was the '65 GTO all original unrestored that was owned by the nicest old couple. They bought it together, drove it together and enjoyed it together. Ever see a real factory unmolested GTO? Well a lot of '60s build quality issues are glaringly bad compared to what you will see at a high dollar car show.
Honestly, money is what ruins this hobby most and fastest. Cars and coffee Dallas (Plano) may be the best recent example. Bone stock Ferraris and Lambos get top billing allowed the best parking spots, but kids who actually did hard work restoring and modifying their cars can't even get in the lot and get turned away. New Z06 Vettes are welcomed, but a really cool restomod mundane car from the 80s would be shunned.
Making the car hobby accessible is the key.
I'm in an odd position in relation to the Vette hobby and NCRS. I'm a middle aged guy but I grew up working with EFI and tuning cars via computers. I couldn't tune a carb for squat, but I now own an excellent condition C3 survivor car. It does have dual exhaust though and is missing it's catalytic converter. All the other smog equipment is there though. The car has had the brakes completely rebuilt, the battery isn't A/C Delco (its an Optima battery safer and more reliable and better for corrosion than the original). The brake booster isn't original (but stopping is more important).
How would the car fare being judged? Okay I imagine. It might be a lot of fun to join the NCRS and drive it to San Antonio this summer and visit the folks while there too. The car is consuming oil and does have oil smoke out the exhaust. That doesn't bode very well for the numbers matching engine and cylinder heads much more in the future.
Yes I'm going to keep the car as original as possible. It's simply too nice not too. I refuse to keep the original worn out broken driver's side armrest though. It will be replaced soon.
The only way the NCRS or any car club survives is to find ways to accomodate more car guys. All car guys appreciate historically accurate museum quality period correct cars. All car guys also appreciate individualized "modded" cars. Are you a car guy or or an elitist jerk? You decide. No one likes elitist jerks.
I refuse to go to cars and coffee Dallas. Also my 2nd toy car is a Japanese and is going to get an American V8 soon (Ford no less).
If I find myself with the cash sooner or later, expect me to build a C3 with a heavily modified suspension, 5 speed, SBC pushing 400hp and sporting EFI. It will also be rolling on 17s or 18s get some interior mods (definitely sound system), and be driven hard and put away wet. I like having cars that can be driven hard.
My current '78 Vette is truly enjoyable to drive. It's a time machine really! It's more closely related to the cars of the '60s than darn near anything else I could get for this price and the Mako Shark styling is just timeless sexy. Is it an NCRS top flight car? Probably not. Do I care? Not really. Would I like to see it judged and appreciated for its highly original and preserved state, probably so. Will I go to the trouble of finding OEM 30+ year old vacuum hoses? No way, I like that fact that my headlights actually go up and down. You can rest assured with original lines in place that wouldn't happen.
My wipers aren't working either. I'm not going to keep the original relay if its the cause either. And I'd rather have the new solid state version that works better if it comes down to it as well.
My favorite ever all time car show was a once a week get together in the summer at an old grocery store. The reason is that you could see all sorts of things. My favorite car was the '65 GTO all original unrestored that was owned by the nicest old couple. They bought it together, drove it together and enjoyed it together. Ever see a real factory unmolested GTO? Well a lot of '60s build quality issues are glaringly bad compared to what you will see at a high dollar car show.
Honestly, money is what ruins this hobby most and fastest. Cars and coffee Dallas (Plano) may be the best recent example. Bone stock Ferraris and Lambos get top billing allowed the best parking spots, but kids who actually did hard work restoring and modifying their cars can't even get in the lot and get turned away. New Z06 Vettes are welcomed, but a really cool restomod mundane car from the 80s would be shunned.
Making the car hobby accessible is the key.
I'm in an odd position in relation to the Vette hobby and NCRS. I'm a middle aged guy but I grew up working with EFI and tuning cars via computers. I couldn't tune a carb for squat, but I now own an excellent condition C3 survivor car. It does have dual exhaust though and is missing it's catalytic converter. All the other smog equipment is there though. The car has had the brakes completely rebuilt, the battery isn't A/C Delco (its an Optima battery safer and more reliable and better for corrosion than the original). The brake booster isn't original (but stopping is more important).
How would the car fare being judged? Okay I imagine. It might be a lot of fun to join the NCRS and drive it to San Antonio this summer and visit the folks while there too. The car is consuming oil and does have oil smoke out the exhaust. That doesn't bode very well for the numbers matching engine and cylinder heads much more in the future.
Yes I'm going to keep the car as original as possible. It's simply too nice not too. I refuse to keep the original worn out broken driver's side armrest though. It will be replaced soon.
The only way the NCRS or any car club survives is to find ways to accomodate more car guys. All car guys appreciate historically accurate museum quality period correct cars. All car guys also appreciate individualized "modded" cars. Are you a car guy or or an elitist jerk? You decide. No one likes elitist jerks.
I refuse to go to cars and coffee Dallas. Also my 2nd toy car is a Japanese and is going to get an American V8 soon (Ford no less).
If I find myself with the cash sooner or later, expect me to build a C3 with a heavily modified suspension, 5 speed, SBC pushing 400hp and sporting EFI. It will also be rolling on 17s or 18s get some interior mods (definitely sound system), and be driven hard and put away wet. I like having cars that can be driven hard.
My current '78 Vette is truly enjoyable to drive. It's a time machine really! It's more closely related to the cars of the '60s than darn near anything else I could get for this price and the Mako Shark styling is just timeless sexy. Is it an NCRS top flight car? Probably not. Do I care? Not really. Would I like to see it judged and appreciated for its highly original and preserved state, probably so. Will I go to the trouble of finding OEM 30+ year old vacuum hoses? No way, I like that fact that my headlights actually go up and down. You can rest assured with original lines in place that wouldn't happen.
My wipers aren't working either. I'm not going to keep the original relay if its the cause either. And I'd rather have the new solid state version that works better if it comes down to it as well.
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bpassmore (04-07-2016)
04-06-2016, 11:05 PM
#107
Safety Car
This was written many years ago by Dr. Rebuild...Maybe even 15 years ago?
Judging has evolved considerably. Cars that were tops years ago are now second rate. Others are now “over restored” - they are too nice.
Tom B. from Waterbury, Connecticut is the original owner of a 77. After achieving a certain level in judging he decided to pursue the higher levels and traveled all over the USA to have his model judged and re-judged. Every few weeks between events, he would purchase parts to comply with the deficits enumerated on the judging sheets. He confided that a number of the parts he replaced were merely to conform to those required by the judges, even though as the original owner he knew the part he was removing was in fact the correct original part.
I was an authorized distributor for the now defunct Wittek Hose Clamp Co. for over 15 years. After they went bankrupt, there was allot of hullabaloo about the correctness of the different Wittek hose clamp reproductions. I my remaining inventory of original Wittek clamps, I found the following. The number 28H radiator hose clamp had 13 different variations with regard to the “Sure Tite” character size, font style, hyphenation and orientation on the band of the clamp. Some are “SureTite”, others are “Sure Tite”, others are “SURETITE”, or “SureTite”. Some are all caps, others are italics. They vary in point size; orientation on the band. The placement, size, font and orientation of the 28H also varies. - So which one is “correct”? They were all made by Wittek.
An original GM blueprint for 5/8” heater hose (circa 1960) show 7 different authorized suppliers. Each had a different pattern of ribs for identification purposes. Some judges pronounce that only one rib pattern is acceptable.
A restoration book states there were over 10 shades of Black paint on a Vettes parts. There are probably even more, when you consider all the different companies that supplied GM with Black parts.
Remember, the only truly original parts for your car - are the part that came on the car. All others are truly replacements."[/I]
Judging has evolved considerably. Cars that were tops years ago are now second rate. Others are now “over restored” - they are too nice.
Tom B. from Waterbury, Connecticut is the original owner of a 77. After achieving a certain level in judging he decided to pursue the higher levels and traveled all over the USA to have his model judged and re-judged. Every few weeks between events, he would purchase parts to comply with the deficits enumerated on the judging sheets. He confided that a number of the parts he replaced were merely to conform to those required by the judges, even though as the original owner he knew the part he was removing was in fact the correct original part.
I was an authorized distributor for the now defunct Wittek Hose Clamp Co. for over 15 years. After they went bankrupt, there was allot of hullabaloo about the correctness of the different Wittek hose clamp reproductions. I my remaining inventory of original Wittek clamps, I found the following. The number 28H radiator hose clamp had 13 different variations with regard to the “Sure Tite” character size, font style, hyphenation and orientation on the band of the clamp. Some are “SureTite”, others are “Sure Tite”, others are “SURETITE”, or “SureTite”. Some are all caps, others are italics. They vary in point size; orientation on the band. The placement, size, font and orientation of the 28H also varies. - So which one is “correct”? They were all made by Wittek.
An original GM blueprint for 5/8” heater hose (circa 1960) show 7 different authorized suppliers. Each had a different pattern of ribs for identification purposes. Some judges pronounce that only one rib pattern is acceptable.
A restoration book states there were over 10 shades of Black paint on a Vettes parts. There are probably even more, when you consider all the different companies that supplied GM with Black parts.
Remember, the only truly original parts for your car - are the part that came on the car. All others are truly replacements."[/I]
"Judging" with proper training, experience and reference standards is a better way to run a car show. "Judging" without one or more of those items is a crapshoot, at best.
And, "judging" with reference standards is somewhat subjective as to the "standards" that are applied.
And, "judging" with reference standards is somewhat subjective as to the "standards" that are applied.
04-07-2016, 06:06 AM
#108
Safety Car
It's easy to pick on the NCRS.
Porsche Club of America gave a 911 the award as the best original car at the annual gathering. When we decided to do a feature story on the car and put t up on a lift we discovered that they entire front pan had been replaced. The car had also been repainted.
So much for original.
The problem is that PCA has no judging manual. A couple of guys spent 20 minutes looking at the car and decided it was the best original car on the field. No one even checked the operation of the lights or gauges.
We might be a little obsessive with our NCRS judging but the alternative of no rules is equally bad.
There is no universally accepted definition as to what it means to be original. Every marque defines it differently.Here's an article I wrote about that issue.
Anthony may have hit on the big problem when he referred to judging as a "hobby". Most of us have our cars as part of a hobby. Then we have the 1% who view certain cars as a collectible object. These special cars are similar to a painting and a 300 hundred year old chair.
The hobbyist makes fun of the people who collect cars and the collectors ignore the hobbyists. We basically have two tribes.
Most of this discussion consists of one tribe attacking another tribe.
Richard Newton
Porsche Club of America gave a 911 the award as the best original car at the annual gathering. When we decided to do a feature story on the car and put t up on a lift we discovered that they entire front pan had been replaced. The car had also been repainted.
So much for original.
The problem is that PCA has no judging manual. A couple of guys spent 20 minutes looking at the car and decided it was the best original car on the field. No one even checked the operation of the lights or gauges.
We might be a little obsessive with our NCRS judging but the alternative of no rules is equally bad.
There is no universally accepted definition as to what it means to be original. Every marque defines it differently.Here's an article I wrote about that issue.
Anthony may have hit on the big problem when he referred to judging as a "hobby". Most of us have our cars as part of a hobby. Then we have the 1% who view certain cars as a collectible object. These special cars are similar to a painting and a 300 hundred year old chair.
The hobbyist makes fun of the people who collect cars and the collectors ignore the hobbyists. We basically have two tribes.
Most of this discussion consists of one tribe attacking another tribe.
Richard Newton
04-07-2016, 11:17 AM
#109
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
Posts: 11,608
Received 772 Likes
on
645 Posts
I'm a car guy. We are all car guys, and there are new generations of car guys too. Every car guy has their own taste and style, things they like and things they don't. Trying to be the ultimate arbiter of taste is always a losing proposition.
well said, I do get the feeling from what I see some cats post that they are trying to be an arbiter what is a nice car vs a bad car based solely on their biased and personal tastes for some dolts doesn't matter how well the build is if they do not like it they feel the need to trash it, none of use like every car, stock or modded the difference is if we keep asinine remarks to ourselves or spew them out loud in some misinformed idea about our self worth and that our "opinion" matters to the builder.
My favorite ever all time car show was a once a week get together in the summer at an old grocery store. The reason is that you could see all sorts of things. My favorite car was the '65 GTO all original unrestored that was owned by the nicest old couple. They bought it together, drove it together and enjoyed it together. Ever see a real factory unmolested GTO? Well a lot of '60s build quality issues are glaringly bad compared to what you will see at a high dollar car show.
Honestly, money is what ruins this hobby most and fastest. Cars and coffee Dallas (Plano) may be the best recent example. Bone stock Ferraris and Lambos get top billing allowed the best parking spots, but kids who actually did hard work restoring and modifying their cars can't even get in the lot and get turned away. New Z06 Vettes are welcomed, but a really cool restomod mundane car from the 80s would be shunned.
Welcome to what makes the world turn it's the golden rule and he who has the gold makes the rules, not all meets are based on how much money a builder tossed at a car, and keep in mind the money matter isn't limited to new turn key cars I have seen some cats on this very forum that believe because they tossed limitless money at their c3 to make it happen it suddenly makes them "cool" or better than you or me. the bigger issue is the attitude that is connected to tall dollars.
Making the car hobby accessible is the key.
I'm in an odd position in relation to the Vette hobby and NCRS. I'm a middle aged guy but I grew up working with EFI and tuning cars via computers. I couldn't tune a carb for squat, but I now own an excellent condition C3 survivor car. It does have dual exhaust though and is missing it's catalytic converter. All the other smog equipment is there though. The car has had the brakes completely rebuilt, the battery isn't A/C Delco (its an Optima battery safer and more reliable and better for corrosion than the original). The brake booster isn't original (but stopping is more important).
You modify your car, no need to make excuses as to why, it's your car build it your way.
How would the car fare being judged? Okay I imagine. It might be a lot of fun to join the NCRS and drive it to San Antonio this summer and visit the folks while there too. The car is consuming oil and does have oil smoke out the exhaust. That doesn't bode very well for the numbers matching engine and cylinder heads much more in the future.
I believe you should take it for ncrs judging...it will be fun.
Yes I'm going to keep the car as original as possible. It's simply too nice not too. I refuse to keep the original worn out broken driver's side armrest though. It will be replaced soon.
Ironically I feel the same way but different about my 69 convertible, it's too nice not to treat it to things like hopped up BB better suspension, better wheels tires, etc etc.
The only way the NCRS or any car club survives is to find ways to accomodate more car guys. All car guys appreciate historically accurate museum quality period correct cars. All car guys also appreciate individualized "modded" cars. Are you a car guy or or an elitist jerk? You decide. No one likes elitist jerks.
Do you really believe that? What makes a car guy? what he has built, his knowledge, ability? it sure isn't what he tossed money at to make happen he better know his ride even if he did pay for it built, there are some cats on here that hate the least little modification sometimes to the extent of belittling a modded car and it's owner yet they are more "car guys" than you and me put together, Or do you deem the only "real" car guys are the ones that YOU say are?not everyone who likes their cars their way is an "elitist jerk" I only dig black cars does that make me an elitist jerk, if so then lots of cats here are.
I refuse to go to cars and coffee Dallas. Also my 2nd toy car is a Japanese and is going to get an American V8 soon (Ford no less).
You are missed
If I find myself with the cash sooner or later, expect me to build a C3 with a heavily modified suspension, 5 speed, SBC pushing 400hp and sporting EFI. It will also be rolling on 17s or 18s get some interior mods (definitely sound system), and be driven hard and put away wet. I like having cars that can be driven hard.
My current '78 Vette is truly enjoyable to drive. It's a time machine really! It's more closely related to the cars of the '60s than darn near anything else I could get for this price and the Mako Shark styling is just timeless sexy. Is it an NCRS top flight car? Probably not. Do I care? Not really. Would I like to see it judged and appreciated for its highly original and preserved state, probably so. Will I go to the trouble of finding OEM 30+ year old vacuum hoses? No way, I like that fact that my headlights actually go up and down. You can rest assured with original lines in place that wouldn't happen.
My wipers aren't working either. I'm not going to keep the original relay if its the cause either. And I'd rather have the new solid state version that works better if it comes down to it as well.
well said, I do get the feeling from what I see some cats post that they are trying to be an arbiter what is a nice car vs a bad car based solely on their biased and personal tastes for some dolts doesn't matter how well the build is if they do not like it they feel the need to trash it, none of use like every car, stock or modded the difference is if we keep asinine remarks to ourselves or spew them out loud in some misinformed idea about our self worth and that our "opinion" matters to the builder.
My favorite ever all time car show was a once a week get together in the summer at an old grocery store. The reason is that you could see all sorts of things. My favorite car was the '65 GTO all original unrestored that was owned by the nicest old couple. They bought it together, drove it together and enjoyed it together. Ever see a real factory unmolested GTO? Well a lot of '60s build quality issues are glaringly bad compared to what you will see at a high dollar car show.
Honestly, money is what ruins this hobby most and fastest. Cars and coffee Dallas (Plano) may be the best recent example. Bone stock Ferraris and Lambos get top billing allowed the best parking spots, but kids who actually did hard work restoring and modifying their cars can't even get in the lot and get turned away. New Z06 Vettes are welcomed, but a really cool restomod mundane car from the 80s would be shunned.
Welcome to what makes the world turn it's the golden rule and he who has the gold makes the rules, not all meets are based on how much money a builder tossed at a car, and keep in mind the money matter isn't limited to new turn key cars I have seen some cats on this very forum that believe because they tossed limitless money at their c3 to make it happen it suddenly makes them "cool" or better than you or me. the bigger issue is the attitude that is connected to tall dollars.
Making the car hobby accessible is the key.
I'm in an odd position in relation to the Vette hobby and NCRS. I'm a middle aged guy but I grew up working with EFI and tuning cars via computers. I couldn't tune a carb for squat, but I now own an excellent condition C3 survivor car. It does have dual exhaust though and is missing it's catalytic converter. All the other smog equipment is there though. The car has had the brakes completely rebuilt, the battery isn't A/C Delco (its an Optima battery safer and more reliable and better for corrosion than the original). The brake booster isn't original (but stopping is more important).
You modify your car, no need to make excuses as to why, it's your car build it your way.
How would the car fare being judged? Okay I imagine. It might be a lot of fun to join the NCRS and drive it to San Antonio this summer and visit the folks while there too. The car is consuming oil and does have oil smoke out the exhaust. That doesn't bode very well for the numbers matching engine and cylinder heads much more in the future.
I believe you should take it for ncrs judging...it will be fun.
Yes I'm going to keep the car as original as possible. It's simply too nice not too. I refuse to keep the original worn out broken driver's side armrest though. It will be replaced soon.
Ironically I feel the same way but different about my 69 convertible, it's too nice not to treat it to things like hopped up BB better suspension, better wheels tires, etc etc.
The only way the NCRS or any car club survives is to find ways to accomodate more car guys. All car guys appreciate historically accurate museum quality period correct cars. All car guys also appreciate individualized "modded" cars. Are you a car guy or or an elitist jerk? You decide. No one likes elitist jerks.
Do you really believe that? What makes a car guy? what he has built, his knowledge, ability? it sure isn't what he tossed money at to make happen he better know his ride even if he did pay for it built, there are some cats on here that hate the least little modification sometimes to the extent of belittling a modded car and it's owner yet they are more "car guys" than you and me put together, Or do you deem the only "real" car guys are the ones that YOU say are?not everyone who likes their cars their way is an "elitist jerk" I only dig black cars does that make me an elitist jerk, if so then lots of cats here are.
I refuse to go to cars and coffee Dallas. Also my 2nd toy car is a Japanese and is going to get an American V8 soon (Ford no less).
You are missed
If I find myself with the cash sooner or later, expect me to build a C3 with a heavily modified suspension, 5 speed, SBC pushing 400hp and sporting EFI. It will also be rolling on 17s or 18s get some interior mods (definitely sound system), and be driven hard and put away wet. I like having cars that can be driven hard.
My current '78 Vette is truly enjoyable to drive. It's a time machine really! It's more closely related to the cars of the '60s than darn near anything else I could get for this price and the Mako Shark styling is just timeless sexy. Is it an NCRS top flight car? Probably not. Do I care? Not really. Would I like to see it judged and appreciated for its highly original and preserved state, probably so. Will I go to the trouble of finding OEM 30+ year old vacuum hoses? No way, I like that fact that my headlights actually go up and down. You can rest assured with original lines in place that wouldn't happen.
My wipers aren't working either. I'm not going to keep the original relay if its the cause either. And I'd rather have the new solid state version that works better if it comes down to it as well.
It's easy to pick on the NCRS.
Porsche Club of America gave a 911 the award as the best original car at the annual gathering. When we decided to do a feature story on the car and put t up on a lift we discovered that they entire front pan had been replaced. The car had also been repainted.
So much for original.
The problem is that PCA has no judging manual. A couple of guys spent 20 minutes looking at the car and decided it was the best original car on the field. No one even checked the operation of the lights or gauges.
We might be a little obsessive with our NCRS judging but the alternative of no rules is equally bad.
There is no universally accepted definition as to what it means to be original. Every marque defines it differently.Here's an article I wrote about that issue.
How can original mean anything other than how it was originally built any replaced part even the same part isn't really original by definition , I really do not see candy apple shades of gray here, you know what I love "survivors"
Anthony may have hit on the big problem when he referred to judging as a "hobby". Most of us have our cars as part of a hobby. Then we have the 1% who view certain cars as a collectible object. These special cars are similar to a painting and a 300 hundred year old chair.
The hobbyist makes fun of the people who collect cars and the collectors ignore the hobbyists. We basically have two tribes.
Most of this discussion consists of one tribe attacking another tribe.
so some ncrs members cant even play nice with each other...
.
Richard Newton
Porsche Club of America gave a 911 the award as the best original car at the annual gathering. When we decided to do a feature story on the car and put t up on a lift we discovered that they entire front pan had been replaced. The car had also been repainted.
So much for original.
The problem is that PCA has no judging manual. A couple of guys spent 20 minutes looking at the car and decided it was the best original car on the field. No one even checked the operation of the lights or gauges.
We might be a little obsessive with our NCRS judging but the alternative of no rules is equally bad.
There is no universally accepted definition as to what it means to be original. Every marque defines it differently.Here's an article I wrote about that issue.
How can original mean anything other than how it was originally built any replaced part even the same part isn't really original by definition , I really do not see candy apple shades of gray here, you know what I love "survivors"
Anthony may have hit on the big problem when he referred to judging as a "hobby". Most of us have our cars as part of a hobby. Then we have the 1% who view certain cars as a collectible object. These special cars are similar to a painting and a 300 hundred year old chair.
The hobbyist makes fun of the people who collect cars and the collectors ignore the hobbyists. We basically have two tribes.
Most of this discussion consists of one tribe attacking another tribe.
so some ncrs members cant even play nice with each other...
. Richard Newton
04-11-2016, 07:13 AM
#110
Safety Car
Original? A word of many meanings.
I was asked to do an article on the top 911 from the PCA annual parade. This car received the award as the finest original Porsche on the judging field.
When we put the car up in the air to photograph the underside it was obvious that the entire front pan had been replaced. So much for original.
Every marque is different. NCRS and BG have very strict standards. I don't see that as a bad thing.
This discussion is interesting in that everyone is beating up on the NCRS and no one has said a thing about Bloomington Gold judging. The standards are virtually the same.
Richard Newton
What is Stewardship About?
I was asked to do an article on the top 911 from the PCA annual parade. This car received the award as the finest original Porsche on the judging field.
When we put the car up in the air to photograph the underside it was obvious that the entire front pan had been replaced. So much for original.
Every marque is different. NCRS and BG have very strict standards. I don't see that as a bad thing.
This discussion is interesting in that everyone is beating up on the NCRS and no one has said a thing about Bloomington Gold judging. The standards are virtually the same.
Richard Newton
What is Stewardship About?
04-11-2016, 11:50 AM
#111
Le Mans Master
I think that's because Bloomington Gold doesn't have local chapters. I don't plan on going all the way to Indianapolis to talk cars so you don't run into them at local events.
04-11-2016, 12:19 PM
#112
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
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I respect that you write articles but opinion is still opinion...
"original" can mean as many things to you as you so desire but to me in the context of cars "original" is how it left the factory...any change makes it no longer original even if the change is just like the way it left the factory...so for me a car restored last week to the way it left the factory is just that "restored" to look original not actually original
Not everyone beats and trashes the ncrs I have been defending them they take a beating that I see from the fact that some of their members are elitist jerks and do their own beating and trash talk and those bad apples give a bad taste across the board.
Only a small percent of trash talkers are ncrs members and where most decent people if taken to that level if they cant be nice they keep their trap shut that bunch of bad apples do not think that way they feel it's their right to spew any asinine thing they so desire.
"original" can mean as many things to you as you so desire but to me in the context of cars "original" is how it left the factory...any change makes it no longer original even if the change is just like the way it left the factory...so for me a car restored last week to the way it left the factory is just that "restored" to look original not actually original
Not everyone beats and trashes the ncrs I have been defending them they take a beating that I see from the fact that some of their members are elitist jerks and do their own beating and trash talk and those bad apples give a bad taste across the board.
Only a small percent of trash talkers are ncrs members and where most decent people if taken to that level if they cant be nice they keep their trap shut that bunch of bad apples do not think that way they feel it's their right to spew any asinine thing they so desire.
04-11-2016, 08:00 PM
#113
Safety Car
04-11-2016, 08:27 PM
#115
Safety Car
04-11-2016, 08:44 PM
#117
Safety Car
Stop in next time you come back into the city!
Last edited by oldgto; 04-11-2016 at 08:44 PM.
04-16-2016, 06:29 AM
#118
Safety Car
The big change in NCRS was when John Amgwert left. Corvette Restorer has never recovered from his leaving.
They made a huge mistake in not hiring another professional editor. Hopefully the new leadership will make the necessary changes.
Just to put this into context Porsche Club of America makes over $1 million a year with their publication.
Richard Newton
They made a huge mistake in not hiring another professional editor. Hopefully the new leadership will make the necessary changes.
Just to put this into context Porsche Club of America makes over $1 million a year with their publication.
Richard Newton
05-07-2016, 08:21 AM
#119
Instructor
Interesting the PCA does so well. It's not an entirely different demographic. I guess that speaks well for working hard to get advertising revenue. Good on them. I imagine the Corvette aftermarket is just as big or bigger.
I'm sad I have been out of the country. I was pretty interested in going to NCRS Austin or Dallas (really in Benbrook) to at least see what's going on. I'm strongly considering have my 25th anniversary judged at least once. It's not perfect, but it's really close to original considering it's age and swap of owners. A lot of that is due to hardwork of the PO (who is a member of this forum) to return things to original.
I'm sad I have been out of the country. I was pretty interested in going to NCRS Austin or Dallas (really in Benbrook) to at least see what's going on. I'm strongly considering have my 25th anniversary judged at least once. It's not perfect, but it's really close to original considering it's age and swap of owners. A lot of that is due to hardwork of the PO (who is a member of this forum) to return things to original.
05-07-2016, 11:44 AM
#120
Safety Car
As i mention about the PCA club magzine (Panorama) brings over $1 million a year in revenue. NCRS is smaller so that means something but any new revenues would help.
Whoever becomes the new Executive Director of the NCRS has to take a very serious look at the monthly publication. Mobile platforms are also beginning to generate significant income.
Richard Newton
Whoever becomes the new Executive Director of the NCRS has to take a very serious look at the monthly publication. Mobile platforms are also beginning to generate significant income.
Richard Newton
Last edited by rfn026; 05-07-2016 at 11:55 AM.