The future of the NCRS
05-08-2016, 06:27 PM
#121
Instructor
I have joined NCRS twice and quit twice
The NCRS is dead unless it changes. The documentation has been great and will be needed for a long time to come. But now and in future years the newer vets information will much easier to find on the internet. The judging is out of control with egos running wild. We had the documentation but where is the standardization? I have had a 1967, a 1981, an 1984. and now I have a 66 and a 2015. To win these top levels forget driving the car! That is what it should be about. I saw a $250 radio trim rectangle on ebay! I've seen $85 bolts. I paid about $10 for my radio trim and it is identical. My 66 has a "near" number matching engine. The builder offered to re-stamp it for a fee. I declined. If I had the money, I could make my 66 driver a top flight car with the right professional help. Even documentation can be faked.
So, What is the point? Let us make them nice and drive them!
1
So, What is the point? Let us make them nice and drive them!
1
This was written many years ago by Dr. Rebuild...Maybe even 15 years ago?
I think he did a very good job of summing up why NCRS might not be for everybody-
"Over that past 20 years these are a few of my observations.
Judging has evolved considerably. Cars that were tops years ago are now second rate. Others are now “over restored” - they are too nice. Today, others should not be restored, they are considered historically significant i.e. survivors. Today one can not merely achieve Gold or a Top award. Apparently in an effort to maintain owners involvement and the accompanying judging and convention fees, new levels of achievement are instituted. Now the achievement levels are Performance Verification, the Duntov, the Bowtie, the Founders, the 5 Star, the Triple Crown. Where does it end? How can you keep the same owner attending events? Keep on raising a new pinnacle.
Tom B. from Waterbury, Connecticut is the original owner of a 77. After achieving a certain level in judging he decided to pursue the higher levels and traveled all over the USA to have his model judged and re-judged. Every few weeks between events, he would purchase parts to comply with the deficits enumerated on the judging sheets. He confided that a number of the parts he replaced were merely to conform to those required by the judges, even though as the original owner he knew the part he was removing was in fact the correct original part. He stated that he had come so far, that he felt compelled to finish his journey. He also added that once that pinnacle was reached, he would never ever do it again.
Another fellow borrowed a friends original gas cap and jack when his 62 was judged. That helped him achieve the points the judges were looking for. Fair?
Several years ago at Corvettes at Carlisle a gentleman in his fifties asked me for a part. In our conversation he stated that he had traveled from California and was only looking for a few bolts with a particular stamp on the head. That was all that he needed to finish his car and have it re-judged. I could not help him. After he left I could not help but think that somewhere a judge had turned this mature successful businessman into a blithering idiot in search of nirvana.
I was an authorized distributor for the now defunct Wittek Hose Clamp Co. for over 15 years. After they went bankrupt, there was allot of hullabaloo about the correctness of the different Wittek hose clamp reproductions. I my remaining inventory of original Wittek clamps, I found the following. The number 28H radiator hose clamp had 13 different variations with regard to the “Sure Tite” character size, font style, hyphenation and orientation on the band of the clamp. Some are “SureTite”, others are “Sure Tite”, others are “SURETITE”, or “SureTite”. Some are all caps, others are italics. They vary in point size; orientation on the band. The placement, size, font and orientation of the 28H also varies. - So which one is “correct”? They were all made by Wittek.
An original GM blueprint for 5/8” heater hose (circa 1960) show 7 different authorized suppliers. Each had a different pattern of ribs for identification purposes. Some judges pronounce that only one rib pattern is acceptable. Apparently they must believe that just one of the companies was the exclusive supplier. The 3/4” heater hose blueprint also show 7 different authorized suppliers.
A restoration book states there were over 10 shades of Black paint on a Vettes parts. There are probably even more, when you consider all the different companies that supplied GM with Black parts. I wonder if anyone could reformulate all the different shades? Do you think they would sell?
When you make a repro, it is often judged to a higher standard than the original GM part. If you repro a Chrome part, it has to have flawless Chrome. And we all know that the original GM parts all had flawless Chrome - right?
I was the very first vendor to offer white stripe vacuum advance hose. Several years ago I saw it on a 5,000 mile 63 coupe, measured it and had it reproduced by another company. Months later I had a judge telling me the stripe was too wide. Now we own our own printing machine for hoses and it can prints hundreds of feet per minute. The weight of the machine actually rests on the hose and as you run it the stripe can actually vary slightly in width.
If your ultimate goal is a trailer queen with all matching dates and numbers - please pursue such parts elsewhere. Remember, the only truly original parts for your car - are the part that came on the car. All others are truly replacements."
I think he did a very good job of summing up why NCRS might not be for everybody-
"Over that past 20 years these are a few of my observations.
Judging has evolved considerably. Cars that were tops years ago are now second rate. Others are now “over restored” - they are too nice. Today, others should not be restored, they are considered historically significant i.e. survivors. Today one can not merely achieve Gold or a Top award. Apparently in an effort to maintain owners involvement and the accompanying judging and convention fees, new levels of achievement are instituted. Now the achievement levels are Performance Verification, the Duntov, the Bowtie, the Founders, the 5 Star, the Triple Crown. Where does it end? How can you keep the same owner attending events? Keep on raising a new pinnacle.
Tom B. from Waterbury, Connecticut is the original owner of a 77. After achieving a certain level in judging he decided to pursue the higher levels and traveled all over the USA to have his model judged and re-judged. Every few weeks between events, he would purchase parts to comply with the deficits enumerated on the judging sheets. He confided that a number of the parts he replaced were merely to conform to those required by the judges, even though as the original owner he knew the part he was removing was in fact the correct original part. He stated that he had come so far, that he felt compelled to finish his journey. He also added that once that pinnacle was reached, he would never ever do it again.
Another fellow borrowed a friends original gas cap and jack when his 62 was judged. That helped him achieve the points the judges were looking for. Fair?
Several years ago at Corvettes at Carlisle a gentleman in his fifties asked me for a part. In our conversation he stated that he had traveled from California and was only looking for a few bolts with a particular stamp on the head. That was all that he needed to finish his car and have it re-judged. I could not help him. After he left I could not help but think that somewhere a judge had turned this mature successful businessman into a blithering idiot in search of nirvana.
I was an authorized distributor for the now defunct Wittek Hose Clamp Co. for over 15 years. After they went bankrupt, there was allot of hullabaloo about the correctness of the different Wittek hose clamp reproductions. I my remaining inventory of original Wittek clamps, I found the following. The number 28H radiator hose clamp had 13 different variations with regard to the “Sure Tite” character size, font style, hyphenation and orientation on the band of the clamp. Some are “SureTite”, others are “Sure Tite”, others are “SURETITE”, or “SureTite”. Some are all caps, others are italics. They vary in point size; orientation on the band. The placement, size, font and orientation of the 28H also varies. - So which one is “correct”? They were all made by Wittek.
An original GM blueprint for 5/8” heater hose (circa 1960) show 7 different authorized suppliers. Each had a different pattern of ribs for identification purposes. Some judges pronounce that only one rib pattern is acceptable. Apparently they must believe that just one of the companies was the exclusive supplier. The 3/4” heater hose blueprint also show 7 different authorized suppliers.
A restoration book states there were over 10 shades of Black paint on a Vettes parts. There are probably even more, when you consider all the different companies that supplied GM with Black parts. I wonder if anyone could reformulate all the different shades? Do you think they would sell?
When you make a repro, it is often judged to a higher standard than the original GM part. If you repro a Chrome part, it has to have flawless Chrome. And we all know that the original GM parts all had flawless Chrome - right?
I was the very first vendor to offer white stripe vacuum advance hose. Several years ago I saw it on a 5,000 mile 63 coupe, measured it and had it reproduced by another company. Months later I had a judge telling me the stripe was too wide. Now we own our own printing machine for hoses and it can prints hundreds of feet per minute. The weight of the machine actually rests on the hose and as you run it the stripe can actually vary slightly in width.
If your ultimate goal is a trailer queen with all matching dates and numbers - please pursue such parts elsewhere. Remember, the only truly original parts for your car - are the part that came on the car. All others are truly replacements."
05-08-2016, 06:43 PM
#122
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
Posts: 11,608
Received 772 Likes
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The NCRS is dead unless it changes. The documentation has been great and will be needed for a long time to come. But now and in future years the newer vets information will much easier to find on the internet. The judging is out of control with egos running wild. We had the documentation but where is the standardization? I have had a 1967, a 1981, an 1984. and now I have a 66 and a 2015. To win these top levels forget driving the car! That is what it should be about. I saw a $250 radio trim rectangle on ebay! I've seen $85 bolts. I paid about $10 for my radio trim and it is identical. My 66 has a "near" number matching engine. The builder offered to re-stamp it for a fee. I declined. If I had the money, I could make my 66 driver a top flight car with the right professional help. Even documentation can be faked.
So, What is the point? Let us make them nice and drive them!
1
So, What is the point? Let us make them nice and drive them!
1
wow very well said and summed up...but I have to wonder if the big trend of "Let us make them nice and drive them!
" is helping to kill the ncrs,
The fact is far more c3's ( I cant speak for any other eras ) are being fixed up and driven and in that modded, I see people say, no, my car isn't modded...really?...your car came with skinny bias plies not those modern donk wheels with 18" rubber band tires....c3 builders are modding engines , suspensions etc and in that the ncrs would have no use for those cars, and sure a very small percent of elitists will trash those cars,
so everyone seems to agree ncrs, change or die, so change how, allow in modified cars, sounds great until you learn the fact each and every person sees "modifications" as a different thing, so some ncrs grand Boohbah decides what is "modified" I see that being too complicated and leaving some modifiers out...my bigger question is in general has ncrs had it's day and ran it's course?
Perhaps a change could be, one side of the room the 100% stock factory restorations that gave birth to the ncrs and on the other side a car built the way the owner desires, restored and in many cases better than stock, so why would I join that side of the room? I do not need a club to tell me I built my car well or not...what perks would the modder side of the room get?
05-08-2016, 08:49 PM
#123
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Land of Thunder
Posts: 33,591
Received 217 Likes
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2018 C2 of Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '12-'13-'14-'15, '19
The NCRS is dead unless it changes. The documentation has been great and will be needed for a long time to come. But now and in future years the newer vets information will much easier to find on the internet. The judging is out of control with egos running wild. We had the documentation but where is the standardization? I have had a 1967, a 1981, an 1984. and now I have a 66 and a 2015. To win these top levels forget driving the car! That is what it should be about. I saw a $250 radio trim rectangle on ebay! I've seen $85 bolts. I paid about $10 for my radio trim and it is identical. My 66 has a "near" number matching engine. The builder offered to re-stamp it for a fee. I declined. If I had the money, I could make my 66 driver a top flight car with the right professional help. Even documentation can be faked.
So, What is the point? Let us make them nice and drive them!
1
So, What is the point? Let us make them nice and drive them!
1
The point is to have a standard to to maintain your car's originality, if you like that sort of thing. If you don't, no one's going to make you.
05-09-2016, 09:10 AM
#124
I no longer belong to the NCRS and have never had my car judged, mainly because I have local access to all the knowledge and parts that I need. For many others, the NCRS has great technical information and should not be overlooked. I really hope they stay in business.
Last edited by Faster Rat; 05-09-2016 at 10:06 AM.
05-09-2016, 11:22 AM
#125
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jan 2009
Location: High Mountains of New Mexico
Posts: 3,267
Received 1,391 Likes
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683 Posts
2023 C2 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2021 C2 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2015 C3 of the Year Finalist
There are numerous Corvette clubs around the country, most all larger cities have them, and they are about getting your cars out and driving them. NCRS is about other things, if you don't like it, don't join, stick with your local clubs. No reason to change NCRS into your local club, as it has a huge membership, packed regional and national events, and so they are meeting the needs of many people who want judging as it is. I enjoy both NCRS and my local clubs, and many NCRS members do too, plenty of room for both.
05-09-2016, 06:18 PM
#126
Ncrs
Well I have not been around lately, but when I sign on I have been following this thread. Many opinions for sure about what is happening and what should happen to the NCRS. As a corvette enthusiast owning a few my take is I love to see what creative ideas go into modding out the cars with all the new products and vendors out there. Many people have done some really nice work and tastefully done. With that said I respect the knowledge base of the NCRS and I applaud the members who desire to keep the car as original as possible. In my case, I have chosen with my current project ( 69 base model) to try very hard to keep it as original as I can and afford. I hope at completion that it will look like one you could have seen in a showroom back in 69. My next project will be restoring another c3 with all the latest and greatest suspension, electronics, etc. Keep the NCRS just the way it is. There are still a lot of us out there that will continue to support the organization, judges and members.
RVZIO
RVZIO
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