Stroh

Can somebody explain to me how a PayPal deposit or a certified check clearing in an account can be reversed after a a sale. There's got to be a finance expert or some banker type that can explain how this happens.

I've had several offers to buy my C3 with "certified checks" or Paypal, sight unseen from distant locations. I always reply that if a check or Paypal is no problem then cash shouldn't be either, and that invariably ends the dialogue.

Anyone with this kind of experience in trying to sell your cars?

Douglas Mariani

Run away from situations like that. It is a scam. When I was selling my wife's 2008 Corvette I would also get those type of e-mails including a few times where they wanted to give me $5000 extra for shipping and send them back the balance.

By the time the certified check hits the bank the scammer is long gone with your vehicle and your stuck with a worthless piece of paper.

Just like you said, if they can pay with PayPal or certified check they can pay with cash

stock76

I got some of those clowns calling/texting when I sold my Harley Davidson.

It was kind of amusing. All kinds of BS: I'm traveling, can you call my wife and she will arrange payment; I'll pay with PayPal and have my fill-in-the-blank come and pick the bike up, blah, blah, blah.

I had a standard answer. "The bike is for sale for cash only. I do not use PayPal. I have the title. We can meet at my bank and complete the transaction. If you have a certified check you can cash it at my bank and hand me the cash, or if you bring cash, once the bank certifies it as genuine US currency we can complete the sale. My bank will be happy to notarize the title transfer".

All I heard was a click when they hung up.

Sadly there are people that fall for these scammers. I got them calling from coast to coast.

540 vette

When I sell something on E Bay, be it a car or parts I don't send anything until I have cash in hand. Once cleared into your account they can not get it. I usually take the money out of the bank.

redvetracr

thats not exactly true, pay-pal can and will pull money from your bank if someone claims your part/product does not meet your description.

The Phantom

Yup, I bought a clutch for my Camaro one time that I guess the seller didn't feel he received enough for in a no reserve auction. Well when push came to shove PayPal stepped in returned my money and dealt with the seller from that point on. I use the service for all online purchases, not saying there aren't scams out there; you should always be careful, but it's worked for me.

Dave

hdal

So,everyone has had some kind of SCAM issue,but can anyone answer his ques as to how,what and where this can happen? I mean a cashiers check in the old days was GOLDEN,what's changed? I'm also very curious! Hdal

Tim 1973

I use papal all the time It's safer the a certified check. I would never take a certified check. Once Paypal puts money in your account its can be transferred to your personal account.

I have had a offer like above and the run off when you tell them cash or paypal

Tim

Stroh

I'm not sure what changed or how the scams work... That's why I posted, I suppose. All I know is the minute I say, "if the check is no problem then cash should be easy as well" they disappear like a fart in the wind.

Viss1

I don't know if anything's changed, other than that internet sales make scams more frequent and visible. Basically, any check can be forged, including cashier's and certified checks. If you unknowingly deposit/cash a fake certified check, your bank will make some or all of the funds available to you (they basically assume the check is legit as a courtesy to you). Then a few days or weeks later, your bank actually processes the check, and it raises a bunch of red flags. Your bank then contacts you to tell you the check was fake and you owe them the money they made available to you.

76C3forme

My wife is a CPA but not a banker. I'm a Real Estate Managing Broker and I'm at the bank making large deposits all the time (but again - not an expert). I can't really comment on how paypal works but as far as the check:

The check you would receive will NOT be a certified check. It will be a fraud / fake "certified" check.

When you deposit the check , it gets routed and this can take several days , a week and sometimes up to a month.. etc. When it's found to be a fake, your bank will remove those funds from your bank account (after they get confirmation of the fake "certified check" and a copy of it).

That's the way it works with Checks at the bank. Your bank does not "take the hit" if you deposit a fraudulent check, you do. It's a shame, but it happens.

It's funny, because with all of the technology, you would figure that there would be a way for them to instantly verify a check, but they can't seem to do that.

This process has been going on "since there has been checks". Check Kiting, which is kind of similar takes advantage of the "float" and enables people to use funds that are not really there. .

Criminals (similar to check scams nowadays) use the "delay in clearing" as their own line of credit so to speak. They would deposit a fake check into a "legitimate" checking account that they recently opened (say for $1000). This check would have something like a California Bank Branch Address but may have a fake "Colorado" routing number for example and it may be deposited somewhere such as NY for example into this "legitimate account".

Funds "clear" on the bad check in 3 days for example, and then that person begins to write checks on that $1,000 to purchase things etc (out of the legitimate account) . However, the "float" is the time between that 3 days and the 7-10 days until the bad check that was deposited makes it to California where it is found out to have an incorrect routing number. In some cases, someone will see that the routing number is from Colorado for example and it may actually even end up being sent there!. (not so much any more - but back in the day, this check could bounce around for a month....)

(In some cases, the original check is routed from CA to CO and then finally back to New York to that bank that took it for deposit before someone finds out what's going on . This used to take time. (and still does - but not as much).

The thief usually used those first 4-5 days in between "deposit to discovery" to use up all of that $1,000 before the original bank froze the account after it was finally discovered that the check was a fake..

By that time, the thief was gone (with $1,000 worth of items that he paid for with checks) . On to the next bank in another part of the country where they begin the process all over again.

Current check scams take advantage of the "float" - the time it takes someone to find out if that the check is bad. By the time it's discovered that it's a fake, the guy is long gone with your C3 or Jetski, Helicopter , whatever...

So the short story is: If you deposit a "certified check" (or a money order) and even if you withdraw the money as soon as you can, you are responsible if that check comes back fake. They will debit your account for the amount of the bad check (or everything that you have in the account if it's less than that amount). Hope that helps a little bit.

A great movie - Catch me if you can, documented a guy who forged American Airlines Payroll checks. Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hanks were in it. After a short time in prison, the U.S. Government began working with him to spot check fraud and many of the safeguards they use today are because of him. It's a good movie.

azza2u

Spare a though that some of the requests from the other side of the world may be legit. I bought my 68 off an eBay seller in Florida and we agreed to use PayPal for a deposit before getting him the full purchase price transferred internationally straight into his bank account.

The seller had me and a guy in Switzerland interested in the car and the difference was I actually called and spoke in depth about the car requesting more info and extra photos long before any discussion on payment. Of course sending money half way around the world isn't without its risks for us international buyers either. But thanks to the groundwork I was confident the car would be as presented.

So don't always discount the international buyer with PayPal, but do be slightly more wary if they don't follow up. And experience says any mention of Western Union transfer from either party as "it is as good a cash" almost always be a scam.

PRNDL

I think 76C3forme covered it, but the short version is that the "Certified Check" you receive is a counterfeit. The bank will credit your account for the full amount of the check, but when the bank finds out that the check is counterfeit - and this could take a full week - they will take the money back from your account. Typically, the scammer doesn't even want your car or whatever it is you are selling. That is why the scammer usually gives you a certified check for more than your selling price, and asks you to forward the extra $500 to their shipper. So if you do that, your $500 will be gone to the scammer but the bank will take back the full amount of the check.

The certified check for more than selling price, send balance to my shipper, is a sure 100% signal that screams SCAM!! I had a friend, an older lady, selling furniture on Craigslist and almost fell for this scam. Fortunately I warned her away from it.

People think that just because their bank credits their account immeditately that means the check must be good. NO!!

Stroh

In the mean time, I'm not all that bummed that this 75 hasn't sold yet. Drove it up the coast about 30 miles to a sweet restaurant on the lake and had a great dinner on a beautiful summer night with my beautiful expecting wife.

There's nothing quite like a C3 to turn heads and cause awe on little boys and grown ups alike.

Ibanez540r

There are plenty of scams out there and usually easy to spot as you stated. No dialogue, just an immediate offer and payment arrangements. Any additional questioning or "normal" communication like many of us have here on the forum via PM for used stuff, they just disappear.

I also don't want this thread to discourage sellers to use Paypal though. It is always my preferred payment method for most online transactions as well as purchases on Craigslist or Racing Junk for something that is being shipped. It is much more secured for both parties. Not only that, but I often need to use a credit card as the full cash isn't always available and Paypal allows me to do that with a private party sale. (I know not financially smart , but Paypal credit also gives me 0% for 6 months on anything over $99.)

I'm the most straight forward honest person to do a transaction with, have been on Ebay and online shopping since 1999 or 2000, but have had deals not come together because the other party is not familiar or afraid of Paypal.

76C3forme

PRNDL is correct,

I "ran on" so much in my reply, I neglected to even mention that. Often they do make the check out for more money. They are not interested in your item, just the amount of money you send them back.

Good Catch PRNDL. In most cases (like you said) with small items like furniture, electronics etc, that's exactly what they do...

76C3forme

That's a good point as well. At least with PayPal you may at least have some protection. (I use it, but not that often / for large items).

One thing that I have heard about those transactions is not so much about Paypal - BUT . . .

Once they get you to agree to use Paypal, they send you a spoof email that looks like it's from Paypal but actually isn't.

When you click the link, it takes you to what looks like a Paypal Page, but it's not Paypal. Then they will usually get your password etc, can send you fake emails like the money has arrived - or simply use that login info to drain your account.

But at least that can be verified by not clicking any email links and going Directly to Paypal and see if the information / transaction / request for money is actually there.

I think Paypal is a good option / possibly safer... Like anything else, you still have to be careful, but I think Paypal can be a safe option.

540 vette

I have an account specifically for paypal. I leave no money in there. When I get paid I take the money out. There is nothing for them to pull back. they can't take money from your account unless authorized to do it. They actually put a freeze on your paypal account. You get a negative balance on paypal. I had it happen to me.

Iceaxe

Read PayPal's information page on what is protected and what is not. For the transaction to be protected the item must be shipped and not picked up in person, among other things.

I use PayPal all the time in one of my company's and they are great. Just make sure you actually read the fine print so you know exactly what is protected, how it's protected and exactly what the rules are.

Stroh

Thanks for all the replies, guys. I hope the thread helps more people like me understand how the scam works, how to recognize it as a scam, how to protect themselves in a Paypal transaction, etc.

I love this forum. Many thanks.