Vibguy

FWIW the "numbers matching" fixation is called a "corvette owners" thing in the Ferrari 308 forum. If a Ferrari add says "numbers matching" they usually call it out. The 308s typically don't have an easy way to match engines with cars. If you want to contact the factory and pay between 500 to 5000 Euros you can have them check it out for you. I understand the "all original" appeal for some serious collectors, but for the guys that just drive the cars it has very little meaning. Imagine if Detroit had the same lack of care. Would you guys pay big money to find out if your engine was original?

Don Rickles

I'm posting this just to make a point. It is not directly related to the engine or motor but sheds a glimpse of WHY or WHAT some around the world feel about modifying a FERRARI.

I like the line "pissing on ENZO's grave"(in our case ZORA). It goes further in that how difficult it is to verify the originality of the motor and the a fee is charged by the factory to do so.....!

Why Aren't There More Ferrari Restomods?

We think we know the reason.

It’s become as popular as traditional restorations. The possibilities are as endless as the final price tag you’d be willing (and able) to pay. Restomods (restoration + modifications) of classic cars, ranging from Ford Mustangs to the Porsche 911 to any of Icon’s Land Cruisers and Broncos, aren’t so new anymore. The art of restomodding has been around for years but once places like Classic Recreations, the Ring Brothers, Singer Vehicle Design and Icon 4X4 opened up, things really took off.



But something occurred to me the other day: Why aren’t there more Ferrari restomods? A quick search turned up very few results, and this 1984 Ferrari 512 BBi restomod was, by far, the best one. It was actually up for sale a few years ago for $365,000. No clue what’s happened to it since, but it’s absolutely gorgeous inside and out. Notice the carbon-fiber fender liners, larger wheels, and lowered height. Its mid-mounted flat-12 looks as lovely as ever. I’d treasure every moment behind the wheel. So why aren’t there more restomod Ferraris? Because owners would become outcasts in the very exclusive classic Ferrari community. Plus, Ferrari HQ wouldn’t at all be happy. In fact, they’d be downright insulted. Why?

These are the Ferraris that were built when Enzo Ferrari was still alive and called the shots. Restomodding one of his cars would be like pissing on his grave, implying old man Enzo didn’t do it right the first time. And then there’s that depreciation factor. Here’s the thing about Ferraris, especially the best ones: they don’t depreciate. Quite the opposite. Ferraris are known to dramatically increase in value and it’s not at all surprising to see, say a 250 GTO, sell for well above $30 million at auction. Do a search and you’ll find that original 512 BBs go for $300,000-$450,000 or so. Those figures will certainly go up, while the $365,000 restomod 512 BBi won’t. It could even lose value, depending on demand for original 512s.


Not all car brands are ideal for restomodding purposes, and Ferrari is a prime example. The 911 reimagined by Singer works, among other reasons, because Porsche built over 62,000 964 911s. Only 2,323 BBs were made. Yes, the market value for classic 911s has been going up, but couldn’t that partially be the result of Singer’s outstanding work and its popularity? Perhaps, but the point is Singer proved there was a market void for insanely expensive restomod 964 911s. The classic Ferrari community won’t respond with anywhere near that level of enthusiasm. Ferrari itself won’t approve and restomod Ferrari owners could be banished and tarred and feathered on their way out. Such is the price of Ferrari ownership.

Vibguy

I agree with everything you say, but my point was not about restomod but engine serial numbers. I have no idea if my 308 motor is original and I don't plan on spending the money to find out. I think most other 308 owners don't care either.

ztheusa

Any Corvette can be numbers matching. The NCRS is the breeding ground for faking.

mrvette

Dead nutz right on, I knew a guy with the stamps to do the work, years ago....I think he is outta the vette hobby now.....

and as stated above, there is NOTHING stock about my '72 vert, NOTHING stem to stern, wheels through roof....NOTHING!!!!!

but you see, number one, it don't go anywhere much....although I did put 2 miles on it today, first time driven this week.....

but that's ok, it's FAR superior to any stock '72.....but it's only half-fast......

ed427vette

War Bonnett,
I have been a member of the Ferrari Forum since 2001. And while I agree with your post for the most part, consider this if you will:

Many Ferrari's are HIGHLY modified. Maybe not Restomad in the sense that Corvettes are but many have been rebodied over the years into totally different shapes and they are highly valuable.

Its like comparing apples to hand grenades..

You have coach builders like Zagato, Pinin Farina, Touring, Vignale, Bertone, etc, who made bodies for all of Enzo's "original" cars. But they also made one-off rebodies after they were sold to customers. Some rebodies were done to order through the factory making them original but not all. The cars done after is what a custom is. And those cars are worth just as much as a factory bodies car. In some cases quite abit more.

Then there are guys like David Piper. He modded ever Ferrari he owned and raced. His 250 LM had a "wide body" that was butt ugly when it ran at LM in 68 but if he ever sold it, that car would probably break all records since he has owned it since new.

Drogo's Breadvan. Very famous car. That was not factory. Some series II GTO's were done outside the factory.

As for Ferrari SPA verifying anything? Not so sure those guys know what is original. More on that later.

Its just far more complicated. All the P4 controversy. Glicks 0846. He is now considered some authority on the cars. Well, if you go back to the early 2002 threads I had to tell him his car was originally a roadster, not a coupe as he first restored it. The guy didnt know. He knows quite a lot now, and I give him credit, but he still has a lot to learn about the right shapes. The 350 Can Am, I think chassis 0858, might be 0860, was recently rebodied by DK engineering in the UK a few years ago and they did a terrible job on the body. They have there own type of philosophy. I agreed with Glick that the car should have stayed a 350 can am even though it was born a 330P4. The "original" racing heritage is more important than the "original" configuration. But its clear the car would be worth more as a 330P4 than it would as a 350 Can Am. But what would be considered more original? The original as raced CanAm body that used the original body which was modified? Or the new made body by DK that was an abomination but it represents the original configuration? So fans of Ferrari have there problems too.

The majority of race cars were rebodied at some point.

Look at NART. They are like the Greenwood of Ferrari's. THIS would be the equivalent of the Restomod for Ferrari's. In fact, most of the examples above would be. The 312P cars they modded are amazing and super expensive.

Also, these cars were made in single digits. That is also a game changer as well as the cars being raced. Real raced L88's fall into this catagory.

Owners have been taking the 330GTC's and converting them to replica 250 GTO's. And those cars more than hold there value. They are way more money than a factory original GTC. Those would be considered customs. They get certified to go vintage racing in them.

I am not sure how many owners really care if Ferrari SPA doesn't like them. They have done some very shady things over the years. The Classiche program has certified very questionable cars for owners who spend a lot of money. The integrity is just not there.

Ferrari's and Corvette. My two favorite cars.

ed427vette

Does it have a VIN tag? That would be stock wouldn't it?

BLUE1972

If some-one gets board go on the Pontiac site and discover that a number of Firebirds left the factory with the incorrect engine vin number stamped on it.

My actual view on this subject : it came about when someone wanted to get more money for his car when selling it. Or someone wanted a better trophy and tried to one up the judging.

If the engine was changed by Chevrolet and is now a CE block - isn't it matching numbers because Chevy put it in?

NCRS has it's place and I'm glad they do what they do. But each person has to decide what they want and how much money they want to spend.

We do have to realize that they were cars when built and anyone who has worked on or been involved in a production assembly line understands that the line did not stop because you ran out of Chevy 3/8 bolts - you just went to the local supplier and purchased 3/8 bolts in the same grade.

Late 72 cars had early 73 parts and visa versa..... Chevy did not throw things out. My 71 has a 69 date code rear defroster motor - it's original.

Yes my cars #'s match, but the 71 has a roller cam and nitrated crank with roller rockers. Is It still matching #'s?

Enjoy the ride, and hobby that is most important , doesn't matter if you match unless that is what you want.

Don Rickles

Ed, My post was quoted from an article found on the net. It was meant for the poster above me that brought up the comparison. However, there are similarities in the "originality vs. value" as with our Vettes.

I will add, that if I were, to purchase a rare Ferrari, I would without question have it's motors originality verified! That's just me, as one of the vocal few.......

Your knowledge and experience with the overseas auto maker appears to be vast. I'm not that well versed.

This non vs. original motor, last comment (I hope), the car with it's original motor, will sell for more money than a similar car optioned equally without it's factory motor.

The "Matching Number" game is entirely different topic....

jcorvette72

that is up to you what engine you have. i have a 72 with a zz4.. people just like the car regardless what engine i have
my 75 has the original engine but ive put a 383 init to preserve the original engine.but thats me

calwldlife

regardless.
the idea is out there that numbers matching is a good thing.
right or wrong doesn't come into it.
in the mind of the buyer it is a value.
they may not understand why.

Faster Rat

Rarity and desirability (supply and demand) is a value concept that applies to most everything. Why people have a problem with that when it comes to C3s is beyond me, unless not all of them are really collector cars. Maybe most are really just a blank canvas for the creative car enthusiast.

Kingtal0n

newer engines tend to have better tech. Sometimes it takes a span of years and suddenly the tech changes dramatically. The best tech in engines we have to date that are less than $1000 are produced after 2002, "LS" variants such as the 4.8/5.3/6.0L truck versions.

lvmyvt76

Warranty, we don't have any stinking warranty!!!!

Dynra Rockets

That is the reason the "born with" phrase stated. Many people in the 80's started using "numbers matching" for a car when in fact it had a CE block with factory warranty paperwork with it.

The price premium is with "born with" engines.

vettebuyer6369

Close for review
————————

Members-

On page 2 I believe I posted an unambiguous caution regarding derailing this conversation with BS and personal attacks. It did not take long to award a vacation anyway.

The argument regarding stock cars vs modified has gone on this forum for the entire 17+ years I’ve been here. I do not intend to close every new thread on the topic because people cannot have a debate without attacking people instead of ideas.

One more clarification. I don’t care who started or starts what. This ongoing conflict is a problem that will be addressed as it occurs, so please do not be under the impression an attack is a blank check for a counter attack or you feel someone’s vague post from whenever “started” it.

Do not engage in personal exchanges in this debate. If that’s too hard to follow, find another, less emotional discussion.

leadfoot4

But it's not just a "car thing". I know the show might be a little hokey, but every once in a while, I watch the TV show 'Pawn Stars", and they deal a lot in guns. A couple of times, I've seen episodes where a potential seller brings in what he/she thinks is a rare firearm, something from the Civil War, or WWI.

While Rick Harrison, the shop owner is somewhat knowledgeable, he frequently brings in an "expert" to examine these so-called, "rare" firearms. Many times, while the firearm may be functioning, and may indeed be from the era that the owner claimed, close inspection reveals that it's a collection of parts, possibly from broken guns that were "cannibalized" for their parts, or guns that were "manufactured" in the field, using replacement parts.

In every case, these "mongrel" guns are worth significantly less money, than a fully original, as manufactured, firearm....

ed427vette

That is 100% correct.

I also collect guns and having all the serial numbers match makes for a higher valued gun.

As for the 308 forum, as I said earlier, I have been on the Ferrari Forum, (FerarriChat) for some time. While, original motors are not a big concern for many of the owners of the late model 8 cylinder street cars, they are prized when a vintage car turns up with one. And like Corvettes, they will command higher values.

I've seen several episodes of Chasing Classic Cars and Wayne C seems to check for originality so it must be important to his customers and they pay good money for his cars.

Also on the race cars, there will be inspection stamps on the engine as well as on other parts from the races they were at. Those stamps now will verify that the engine was at a certain race and add value. The reason they were stamped at the races was to make sure they were using the correct sized engine as that was a limiting factor to classify what kind of race car it is such as prototype or GT. Also, the inspectors wanted to make sure the racers were not cheating by using a bigger displacement than they were allowed.

Originality and its levels of such are many collectors are after. "Matching numbers" is a useless term and hopefully one day it will no longer be used if enough poeple get educated as to its lack of meaning.

Ferrari engine inspection stamps may not have numbers, maybe symbols, but it will indicate an engine used at a given race. So "matching number" will not apply, but "matching stamps/symbols" may be more accurate as to say the trans and engine have the same inspection stamp.

LFOTremolo

This is a great thread for me. I recently sold my '55 Chevy 210 4-door which was 90% original:



Loved the "time machine" quality of it but when the unrebuilt 62 year old 265 was turning high revs (2 spd Power Glide, no OD) I was always worried something was gonna break loose... Never did, though, and when I came across a '77 C3 which was rebuilt onto a new frame, with a ZZ4 under the hood I was stoked:



No pollution crap, headers, more power than the original L48. I see the attraction of both concepts. For now I will enjoy the modified ride...

Thanks for all the previous posts!!

The13Bats

These type threads that have heated subjects that some get super passinate about do tend to go with one group saying their way is the only right way and another group saying no theirs is and a few if us saying who cares do what makes you happy with your car,

Seems from this forum and other feedback more c3s do not have orginal engines

I do see in some cases the "born with" engine does make a difference in buyer interest and adds to the resale price, but it seems to me this applies far more to special examples of c3s, the rare options on more sought after models, the cars that seem to have more interest to the investor collector c3 fans, it doesnt appear very important if at all to the guys who say they bought their c3 to drive and have fun with,

i see where the question about the engine, is it orginal might get asked and the answer of it in those cases being nom doesnt effect the sale or the price seems from threads like this one and other feedback nom is more common in a c3 than it having a born with engine,

I have seen guys say that block stamps can and are faked,
Not my area of expertise, im guessing that it is true and people have been taken in that way,
How does one know that engine is the born with one?

I have no idea where a born with yet rebuilt engine falls in,
Do we call that reborn with?
Or numbers matching but rebuilt,
Does rebuilt count against born with?

Or what does the cat do who desires born with engine but its gone, lost or distroyed, does close count, i see engines sold and the ad will say correct for such in such year, but it wont be orginal to that car, so why would it still matter?

So here we have lets say a stunning very orginal factory type restored beautifully 69 427 435 4 speed convertible,

Orginal engine was long blown up is that car now something to look down on, is it less of a car, to my understanding it is worth less to that collector investor cat but the car itself, because the engine isnt the one that came in it is it now some half breed bastard?

To Me, i dont think so.