Bergerboy

Been searching the forum for possible culprits of this nagging drip at the front of the oil pan.
New pan last summer. New Fel-Pro neoprene blue gasket. Also a new rear main seal while I was in there.
Started a slow drip up front only this spring, and it appears to be coming from the front lip of the pan where it runs around the front crank shaft, right under the harmonic balancer. It also seems to spraying/running rearward mainly on the right side of the block and saturating the fuel pump area. (still may be another leak around the pump, but hoping it's the same origin as shown below - left side of the block is dry, maybe due to the balancer spinning the oil to the right??).
I plan to pull the pan and try a new gasket this weekend, and maybe an extra bead of RTV around the radius.
But I'm not 100% sure it's not something else.
Alternate suspects:
1) The timing chain cover gasket leaking right at that spot. Does it look like that is likely?
2) Less likely: The front seal around the crank shaft behind the Harmonic Balancer. Read where you can pull the HB off and replace the seal, while also inserting a sleeve over any damage on the shaft itself. I don't think this is it, because there doesn't seem to be any oil coming from the shaft area and dripping down the timing chain cover.


Once the car is up on the ramps and the pan is dropped, I'd prefer to have everything I need at hand so I can deal with any contingencies.
Would appreciate the input of fellow "plumbers" out there.


Thanks!

TOM B1

When installing these pans the gasket tends to move slightly because of the thin lip on the pan. put sealer on both sides of the gasket, and a good dab in the corners so when you install the pan it squeezes out a little.
Most of the time it leaks at the corners and runs down under the gasket to the bottom.
Use brake clean to clean off the oil on the pan and block. I use the ultra black silicone gasket maker.

Bergerboy

Thanks Tom,
My hope is that is all it is - and that I can address this leak with a re-do of the main pan gasket, adding some help with RTV top and bottom side. I thought these high-end Fel=Pro gaskets were meant to be installed without sealer (even though I added a few tabs in the corners).
I'm not looking forward to Plan B, which may involve removing the HB and the Timing Cover to reseal those areas. But at least the area around the HB shaft appears dry, so that's less likely.
I'm also hoping that the re-do on the pan gasket addresses the similar leak on the back side of the pan at the bottom of the flywheel cover. I originally thought that was the rear main seal, which I replaced last summer with the oil pan and gasket. But that still tends to drip.
I know these are old vehicles, and folks here on this forum learn to live with them, but something makes me want to fix them as best as I can.
To me - it's kind of embarrassing to be leaving from a friend's driveway or my spot at a show, and have my pride and joy leaving a little quarter-sized memento!
FWIW.

Rescue Rogers

Before you pull it you can clean the whole area really well with a degreaser and get it nice and dry. Then start it and run the rpms up and down for a few minutes and check it until the oil appears. I just did this with my rebuilding of a junk power steering pump. it eliminates the guessing and hoping

doorgunner

Good idea above. If you do remove the pan clean all oily gasket areas with acetone/etc. On my 3rd try at resealing my pan I allowed the rtv to cure for 24 hours before adding oil and starting the engine......the acetone and the curing time seemed to solve the leaking problem.

autoalain

Hi, went though this, redid everything twice still leaked, took off damper and found it was groved, put kit on damper, fixed. Mike.

av81

After its dry look at the bolt in the block beside the timing cover it has a 9/16 head oil will leak up the threads and out looking like a oil pan leak , I second the possibility of a groove in the balancer , also when installing gaskets I use black weather strip adhesive to hold gaskets in place so they dont squeeze out then a dab of rtv on the corners.

Bergerboy

Thanks av81 - I'll look out for leaks around that bolt.
Anyone have any photos or drawings of the front of the block that show this bolt location?
I'm thinking this bolt was referred to before as a potential culprit. Isn't it the access port for the Fuel Pump actuator lever?
Regarding the balancer being a source of the leak, wouldn't I see oil dripping/splattering around the inside of the balancer itself? Or at least running down the front of the timing cover from the crank shaft exit?

Bergerboy

Got a good photo!

Google is a wonderful thing!

av81

y/w take that bolt out put rtv on it then tighten it

Bergerboy

Looks like that fuel pump bolt area is dry.
But I just received a new Fel-pro oil pan gasket [the blue Perma-Dry type] and the instructions only call for added sealer at the corners. The rest must be installed dry, per Fel-pro.
So is it still advisable to apply a full bead top and bottom of the gasket?

doorgunner

Been there.......the gasket will "squish" out of place when you tighten the pan bolts with the RTV on top/bottom/both. Just put some RTV in every corner of the block where the gasket sits. Then tighten the pan bolts in increments.......snug all of the bolts first.....then tighten all the bolts with a torque wrench if you have one....if not, tighten the bolts BUT pay attention that you are not smashing the gasket so that it squeezes out in spots.

revitup

Tighten the1/4 inch bolts 7-9 ft. lbs of torque, and the 5/16 bolts to 12 ft. lbs. torque.

Bergerboy

Thanks Guys,
I did focus on that front "hump" area of the pan last night, and did see that the U-channel of the Fel-Pro seal looked shifted out of line with the pan a bit, and that's where the oil seemed to be gathering. But then again, it was at the lowest point in the hump, so the leak could have been seeping down from the corners and collecting at the bottom.
I loosened the whole pan so it would separate partially from the front area adjacent to the timing cover, and ran a bead of RTV above and below the gasket. Smashed the RTV in there with my finger, and then I tried to force the gasket to stay in place as I snugged up the pan bolts again.
Letting it sit overnight before I start it up and check for leaks again there.
Also - I think these top-end Perma-Dry gaskets don't tend to wander or squish out as bad as others, as they have a metal layer supporting the gasket (at least on the long flat sides), so I think it should be able to maintain better alignment in between the bolts, no? It's mainly the 2 hump areas that could shift position.

Tiger Joe

you said you put a new pan on- I have seen where an aftermarket pan wasnt bent exactly perfect and didnt make a proper seal across the front there.


i had a similar oil leak on my 327. I cleaned everything off really good and let the car run in the garage. I could see oil running out of the pan gasket and it was dry about. being yours is wet above, I would question the timing cover seal.

its pretty easy to pull the balancer and change that seal, being your pan gasket is new I would almost just start there and chance that seal and sleeve the balancer if necessary

Bergerboy

So far, no leaks from the front, but haven't started it up yet since the RTV applied last night.
But now seeing a leak from the rear of the pan between the flywheel cover and the bell housing (4-speed), which was last year's project resulting in changing the Rear Main Seal while the pan and gasket was replaced.


I'll go ahead and drop the pan fully this weekend.
Hope to be able to see if there is truly any seepage from under the timing chain cover.
I took a short video of the leak (file too large to upload here) and it really looks like it's coming from between the pan and the gasket at the bottom of the "hump".
I'm hearing several different advices for the RTV on these Perma-Dry gaskets:
1) Fel-Pro says that NO RTV except in the very corners
2) Some forum members' input saying full beads of RTV top and bottom of the gasket
3) Others saying only RTV on one full side of the gasket

Tiger Joe

if its seeping at the bottom like you think its probably because the shape of the half circle of the pan does not match perfectly to the timing cover. only way you will fix that is with some type of RTV

Bergerboy

I'm Dry - Dry - Dry!!!
And Tiger Joe wins the Kewpie Doll prize!
Drained the oil and dropped the pan on Saturday.
Cleaned everything off really well with solvent and inspected the interfacing surfaces.
Everything looked good and smooth.
Put a NEW Perma-Dry gasket from Fel-Pro on with a healthy bead of blue RTV between the pan and the gasket.
It did appear that the 2 half-circles that span around the crank were not a perfect fit to the gasket, and that was also apparent once I pressed it up the block.
Before that, I added another bead to the top of the gasket, with extra thickness at those 2 half-circles.
Fit it all up using those awesome locating studs that Fel-Pro provides, and made sure I had good squeeze out at those critical areas, just snugging up the bolts.
I let her cure for 24 hours before refilling the oil, and the did so, started her up and let it run a while - no leaks observed anywhere when looking from underneath!!
Then took it for a dinner ride with the wife - about 50 miles.
Came home and still no leaks. And no drips on the garage floor any of the mornings since.
Happy - Happy - Happy!!
Also observed that the front leak pretty much HAD to come from the pan seal, because the timing chain cover actually comes down and under the block, and forms the surface that the pan seals to. If that were to leak, it would leak into the crankcase. Unless the leak came from higher up the sides of the timing cover.


And bonus: While I was under there waiting for the RTV to cure, I gave the oily areas some good cleaning - especially the back of the bell housing and the transmission case.
All had some healthy grease-caking going on for who knows how long! Took some brake cleaner and a Scotch-Brite pad and made it all nice and clean.
While I was at it, I found and photo'd the Trans ID stampings, and was able to confirm the VIN matches, and the build date code indicates being built 4 weeks prior to the car's birthday!!
All-in-all a really good weekend! Really glad to finally cure those nagging leaks.
Thanks to TJ and all the others that helped out on this one!

Rescue Rogers

Since you started this thread I replaced my leaking power steering pump to developed a leak that cost me 1.5 quarts over a 160 mile drive. Ive got everything apart and I hope that following along with everyones advice i can get this mess fixed. I think it was the damper seal in the timing chain cover but I have to replace the pan, timing cover and water pump gaskets to do it.

Everything is apart and ready to go back together, just waiting on a high pressure oil pump. My oil pressure was steady at 30 psi all day long but I want more pressure for spirited high rpm romps.

congratulations on a dry engine

Thanks
scott

doorgunner

No more leaks!