NCRS judging and paint ???
11-21-2018, 05:10 PM
#21
as I said earlier it is a bit variable depending on the judge whether exact paint color or "close" is a deduction, but if the judge feels the car has counterfeit tags for the purpose of qualifying inspection its almost guaranteed to end badly, these guys make money judging cars and for those judges to have any credibility to insurance companies or value appraisals any attempt to falsify documentation is a serious thing because the word fraud tends to get tossed around the courtroom if it ever comes to that.
11-21-2018, 05:19 PM
#22
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: Sitting in his Nowhere land Hanover Pa
Posts: 49,006
Received 6,943 Likes
on
4,782 Posts
2015 C2 of Year Finalist
as I said earlier it is a bit variable depending on the judge whether exact paint color or "close" is a deduction, but if the judge feels the car has counterfeit tags for the purpose of qualifying inspection its almost guaranteed to end badly, these guys make money judging cars and for those judges to have any credibility to insurance companies or value appraisals any attempt to falsify documentation is a serious thing because the word fraud tends to get tossed around the courtroom if it ever comes to that.
the NCRS judging paint judging is on the judges eye on how the paint appears to look the only problem is if the judging event is held outside or inside and how the lighting effects the paint. the shade is again in the eye of the judge. you can line up ten 53 Polo white cars and you will have ten different shades of white. there is a flow chart to help the judge judge the paint.
Last edited by Nowhere Man; 11-21-2018 at 05:19 PM.
11-21-2018, 05:30 PM
#23
most of these judges also do agreed value appraisals and provide paid expert testimony in courtrooms, case in point when a customers car burnt in my parking lot overnight it caused significant damage to the adjacent vehicles, the court had to rely on expert testimony from an appraiser who also was a certified ncrs judge. in my case I was there because my shops insurance company was on the hook as well as my shop for the damages. been there done that.
11-21-2018, 05:31 PM
#24
I think the OPs question is pretty straightforward and has received a few straightforward answers. Not sure why the thread has veered into another highjack into questioning the value of NCRS.
I don’t think anyone has suggested Top Flight cars are routinely faked with phony trim tags. It’s absolutely true that it’s possible, and also true that NCRS does not “authenticate” anything, but the fact is many NCRS judges are quite good at what they do and will reject a counterfeit tag. What “appears correct” might be a higher standard to a Judge than your average Joe, so talk of Frankenstein cars diluting the value of NCRS awards is a little silly.
The answer to the OPs question is purely a math one. The potential loss of 170 points could take a car out of Top Flight contention by itself. The decision to fake a trim tag might work, but the risk of the car being banned and known as a fake seems like a terrible choice.
If someone wants a different color car, that’s a decision people make every day. But it doesn’t seem to jive with also wanting a car to be a Top Flight.
11-21-2018, 05:37 PM
#25
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: Sitting in his Nowhere land Hanover Pa
Posts: 49,006
Received 6,943 Likes
on
4,782 Posts
2015 C2 of Year Finalist
Thank you. Why I ask is that I am looking to purchase a car that Has the original trim tag stating a different color. The car is beautiful and the owner restored it but didn't like the original color but made it his own. I believe everything else is original matching numbers and was just curious that if the car was a top flight car and just had a paint change it could still receive a second flight which would be ok in my book as long as i liked the color. I also was curious for pricing as I was worried if it detracted from the value but I guess if everything else is correct and you like the color its good for you and if your gonna resell hopefully the buyer likes the color too.
The following users liked this post:
jsg1518 (11-21-2018)
11-21-2018, 05:39 PM
#26
It does help and thank you to all. Im not new to corvettes but am new to the ncrs judging stuff so thanks again.
11-21-2018, 05:39 PM
#27
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: Sitting in his Nowhere land Hanover Pa
Posts: 49,006
Received 6,943 Likes
on
4,782 Posts
2015 C2 of Year Finalist
most of these judges also do agreed value appraisals and provide paid expert testimony in courtrooms, case in point when a customers car burnt in my parking lot overnight it caused significant damage to the adjacent vehicles, the court had to rely on expert testimony from an appraiser who also was a certified ncrs judge. in my case I was there because my shops insurance company was on the hook as well as my shop for the damages. been there done that.
11-21-2018, 06:09 PM
#28
11-21-2018, 06:50 PM
#29
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: Sitting in his Nowhere land Hanover Pa
Posts: 49,006
Received 6,943 Likes
on
4,782 Posts
2015 C2 of Year Finalist
11-21-2018, 07:39 PM
#30
Team Owner
Well, one "myth" is that judges might not know if the paint is single stage or 2-stage. If the judge can't figure that one out, he/she shouldn't be a judge.
11-21-2018, 08:00 PM
#31
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: Sitting in his Nowhere land Hanover Pa
Posts: 49,006
Received 6,943 Likes
on
4,782 Posts
2015 C2 of Year Finalist
it doesn't matter if its single stage or two stage. it just has to appear to be lacquer. lacquer has its own characteristics that is hard to mimic in all areas but point loss can be saved
11-21-2018, 08:32 PM
#33
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: Sitting in his Nowhere land Hanover Pa
Posts: 49,006
Received 6,943 Likes
on
4,782 Posts
2015 C2 of Year Finalist
11-22-2018, 11:14 AM
#34
Safety Car
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: PHOENIX AZ. WHAT A MAN WON"T SPEND TO GIVE HIS ASS A RIDE
Posts: 3,678
Received 306 Likes
on
220 Posts
ONE MORE TIME! NCRS judges a Corvette as to how close it is the same as a new one of that year that was delivered to the customer at the dealership minus any dealer add ones. Each component is assigned points for originality & condition. Using paint for example the color has to match the original trim tag to be scored at all. if it dose thy also want it to look like it did when applied at the factory no better no worse. Not overly shinny & jams & other areas that were not polished should be duller than the rest of the car. A Corvette with bad original paint could lose all condition points but get all originality points. NCRS is a group of people that want to RESTORE Corvettes not make them better or worse than they were when new. A lot of us in NCRS have & love some Corvettes the would not fit in that mode One can play golf but also like tennis.
11-22-2018, 11:36 AM
#35
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
Posts: 11,608
Received 772 Likes
on
645 Posts
ONE MORE TIME! NCRS judges a Corvette as to how close it is the same as a new one of that year that was delivered to the customer at the dealership minus any dealer add ones. Each component is assigned points for originality & condition. Using paint for example the color has to match the original trim tag to be scored at all. if it dose thy also want it to look like it did when applied at the factory no better no worse. Not overly shinny & jams & other areas that were not polished should be duller than the rest of the car. A Corvette with bad original paint could lose all condition points but get all originality points. NCRS is a group of people that want to RESTORE Corvettes not make them better or worse than they were when new. A lot of us in NCRS have & love some Corvettes the would not fit in that mode One can play golf but also like tennis.
11-22-2018, 02:47 PM
#36
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: Sitting in his Nowhere land Hanover Pa
Posts: 49,006
Received 6,943 Likes
on
4,782 Posts
2015 C2 of Year Finalist
11-22-2018, 03:28 PM
#37
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
Posts: 11,608
Received 772 Likes
on
645 Posts
Thanks for the 101 im a diehard modder but restorations and even more so survivors intrigue me,
My OCD and ADD would keep me from going that way.
Late 80s in orlando an elderly lady i would see around had a c2, i dont recall year, coupe auto ac, she bought it new had close to 200k miles and looked it, her daily driver all that time,
Headlights fixed open, bead covers on seats, drink holders etc she told me she had things fixed if must to drive it.
But paint doesnt make a car run.
She also made it clear she wasnt stupid and had great disdain for the @#$% type condesending guys who offered to swap her a new Saturn or honda for her old worn out worthless clunker...
I wonder what became of the car.
My OCD and ADD would keep me from going that way.
Late 80s in orlando an elderly lady i would see around had a c2, i dont recall year, coupe auto ac, she bought it new had close to 200k miles and looked it, her daily driver all that time,
Headlights fixed open, bead covers on seats, drink holders etc she told me she had things fixed if must to drive it.
But paint doesnt make a car run.
She also made it clear she wasnt stupid and had great disdain for the @#$% type condesending guys who offered to swap her a new Saturn or honda for her old worn out worthless clunker...
I wonder what became of the car.
11-22-2018, 03:38 PM
#38
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: Sitting in his Nowhere land Hanover Pa
Posts: 49,006
Received 6,943 Likes
on
4,782 Posts
2015 C2 of Year Finalist
Thanks for the 101 im a diehard modder but restorations and even more so survivors intrigue me,
My OCD and ADD would keep me from going that way.
Late 80s in orlando an elderly lady i would see around had a c2, i dont recall year, coupe auto ac, she bought it new had close to 200k miles and looked it, her daily driver all that time,
Headlights fixed open, bead covers on seats, drink holders etc she told me she had things fixed if must to drive it.
But paint doesnt make a car run.
She also made it clear she wasnt stupid and had great disdain for the @#$% type condesending guys who offered to swap her a new Saturn or honda for her old worn out worthless clunker...
I wonder what became of the car.
My OCD and ADD would keep me from going that way.
Late 80s in orlando an elderly lady i would see around had a c2, i dont recall year, coupe auto ac, she bought it new had close to 200k miles and looked it, her daily driver all that time,
Headlights fixed open, bead covers on seats, drink holders etc she told me she had things fixed if must to drive it.
But paint doesnt make a car run.
She also made it clear she wasnt stupid and had great disdain for the @#$% type condesending guys who offered to swap her a new Saturn or honda for her old worn out worthless clunker...
I wonder what became of the car.
11-23-2018, 03:50 PM
#39
Team Owner
They are a "Restoration" Society; so they are into 'restoration', rather than maintaining originality. In the NCRS world, a totally original car with undamaged but worn paint would not be appreciated as much as a new, 2-stage paint job at its first car show. 
Sorry, but that just makes no sense to me. (That is my opinion, thank you.)
Sorry, but that just makes no sense to me. (That is my opinion, thank you.)
11-23-2018, 04:09 PM
#40
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
Posts: 11,608
Received 772 Likes
on
645 Posts
I know my taste has many flaws but i would far rather have a survivor in up to par driver condition than same car freshly restored,
The biggest paradox with me liking survivors is i do not like museum pieces, cars i have must be driven as cars and that would wear out survivors original parts, meh. So be it.
The biggest paradox with me liking survivors is i do not like museum pieces, cars i have must be driven as cars and that would wear out survivors original parts, meh. So be it.