School time! Dollar/Point NCRS Scoring VS General Resale.
11-22-2018, 12:48 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
? Dollar/Point NCRS Scoring VS General Resale.
Time to help my understanding. Restoring a 72 Base Convertible. Trying to better gauge / budget / estimate restoring aspects of cars that are not original.
I know that some use a dollar / point scale when evaluating project cars for purchase. But these points are not equally weighted. And I am trying to better evaluate where dollars are best spent.
For example, if a car were perfect, except for it's non original engine, will cost 350 points. On a value scale, it is no longer a NOM car, and value plummets. Incorrect paint, and other parts incorrect in appearance, condition, or an incorrect alternator, would also lose 350 points, but still be a judged car.
How does one best use the NCRS Judging sheet points, weight points in importance, adjust for the finished market value of a car, in order to determine best use of money spent on work that needs to be done?
Thanks,
Fred
I know that some use a dollar / point scale when evaluating project cars for purchase. But these points are not equally weighted. And I am trying to better evaluate where dollars are best spent.
For example, if a car were perfect, except for it's non original engine, will cost 350 points. On a value scale, it is no longer a NOM car, and value plummets. Incorrect paint, and other parts incorrect in appearance, condition, or an incorrect alternator, would also lose 350 points, but still be a judged car.
How does one best use the NCRS Judging sheet points, weight points in importance, adjust for the finished market value of a car, in order to determine best use of money spent on work that needs to be done?
Thanks,
Fred
Last edited by C2-C3Guy; 11-23-2018 at 08:58 AM. Reason: title formatting tweak.
11-23-2018, 09:01 AM
#2
Dementer sole survivor
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I personally dont care about NCRS judging when Im purchasing a car because I'm not in that circle of Hobbyist or investor. I want a good solid car with a great body and paint that I can cruise in, go to car meets and local shows in and have it look great. THen rally it home on twisting roads and enjoy the crap out of. The stock suspension is hard and handles poorly, the stock tire size is soft and unforgiving, the stock seats feel like a milk crate, the cooling system works on the highway, mostly, dim and dangerous headlights and the stock horsepower is underpowered compared to the soccermom vans that cruise past me on the highway since they are all computer controlled and fuel injected. I want upgrades because Im more of a hotrodder than a originalist. Dont get me wrong. I have a 327 in there still, 4 speed still (5 speed in the future) its still carbureated and the interior is mostly stock except for the stereo and seats. But it does have C5 seats, 16 inch 50 series tires, electric cooling fan, Alpine 400 watt stereo, 100 amp alternator and improved lights.
So I would say that the points dont figure into it at all and you cant because they take off points for a newer bolt that doesnt have the correct stamp. I could care less if its the right stamp as long as it isnt going to snap off when I need it.
I'm not into the patina crowd or faded paint look. I think its kind of lazy. But thats me. I can also say my car is a barn find because I find it in a barn every day but I dont, thats a different story as everyone has a barn find car now. Its very expensive to get a good paint job and that is the one thing I cant do in my garage/ barn very well. I may try in the future but not now. My car had a value change of about $3500 according to the appraiser for the incorrect motor in the car. I have the correct motor out of the car now on a stand and it will eventually go back in. And if the paint was faded he would have deducted that in the appraisal as well
You have to decide what you want the car for, investment which a NCRS car may be worth more if its a collectible car, ( IE chrome bumper years, special edition model, rare models ). Currently a plastic bumper car isnt valued as high as the chromies but thats a personal thing. I know plenty of guys here that love that more aero dynamic look. But a really nice restomod plastic bumper car could have more into it and be worth more to the person that wants a corvette with all the modern conviences.
I know i havent really answered your question but the value of the car is what you want to pay for it for your end purpose. I can only afford one car so I dont want a car that is all original down to the screw holding the dash cover on, but i would gladly auction it off to a collector that would want it for all its originality. I want to drive it because it is one of the funnest cars I have owned. If I could have both I would love to have an all original car so I could say it is all original, but I may get it painted so it looks as good as it should.
So I would say that the points dont figure into it at all and you cant because they take off points for a newer bolt that doesnt have the correct stamp. I could care less if its the right stamp as long as it isnt going to snap off when I need it.
I'm not into the patina crowd or faded paint look. I think its kind of lazy. But thats me. I can also say my car is a barn find because I find it in a barn every day but I dont, thats a different story as everyone has a barn find car now. Its very expensive to get a good paint job and that is the one thing I cant do in my garage/ barn very well. I may try in the future but not now. My car had a value change of about $3500 according to the appraiser for the incorrect motor in the car. I have the correct motor out of the car now on a stand and it will eventually go back in. And if the paint was faded he would have deducted that in the appraisal as well
You have to decide what you want the car for, investment which a NCRS car may be worth more if its a collectible car, ( IE chrome bumper years, special edition model, rare models ). Currently a plastic bumper car isnt valued as high as the chromies but thats a personal thing. I know plenty of guys here that love that more aero dynamic look. But a really nice restomod plastic bumper car could have more into it and be worth more to the person that wants a corvette with all the modern conviences.
I know i havent really answered your question but the value of the car is what you want to pay for it for your end purpose. I can only afford one car so I dont want a car that is all original down to the screw holding the dash cover on, but i would gladly auction it off to a collector that would want it for all its originality. I want to drive it because it is one of the funnest cars I have owned. If I could have both I would love to have an all original car so I could say it is all original, but I may get it painted so it looks as good as it should.
Last edited by Rescue Rogers; 11-23-2018 at 09:04 AM.
11-23-2018, 09:25 AM
#3
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Roger that was perfect and i agree with 99% of it, i still dont know for sure i understand the treads question so i wanna take a try,
Oh, im in that patina crowd, and i am lazy but thats not why i gravatate to it i love survivors stock okay but especially cars customized in the day and left along for decades,
I want my 69 to look like a barn find i know
That i wheeled out and got running driving, however my 69 is ground up restored everything new or rebuilt, pantina is hard to fake,
.
Back to the threads topic if i get it at all,
A car with a high ncrs score will be priced higher than same car without the ncrs awards, it also very well might sell for more because ncrs awards are like a carfax but far better,
Im guessing some shoppers wont buy a rare sought after c3 without ncrs type awards,
So sure a bad ncrs score will hurt a good one will help,
"if" and that's a huge if a buyer cares about ncrs.
A guy who doesnt care about numbers or original isnt going to pay extra for ncrs awards,
The guy who bought my flares said his car was some bb chromie all numbers and pristine and he is modding it, i said but isnt the value in keeping it numbers
matching stock, he said the value means zero to him he wants a car worth driving,
Ncrs is a wonderful thing stock is great i respect guys who like it but its drifting away from stock, even ncrs has a modded class they saw the writting on the wall, evolve or perish,
More and more guys want some upgrades for reasons like roger stated, sure the ncrs purists will still be there with their jewels, but more and more c3s are coming to the dark side.
Oh, im in that patina crowd, and i am lazy but thats not why i gravatate to it i love survivors stock okay but especially cars customized in the day and left along for decades,
I want my 69 to look like a barn find i know
That i wheeled out and got running driving, however my 69 is ground up restored everything new or rebuilt, pantina is hard to fake,
.Back to the threads topic if i get it at all,
A car with a high ncrs score will be priced higher than same car without the ncrs awards, it also very well might sell for more because ncrs awards are like a carfax but far better,
Im guessing some shoppers wont buy a rare sought after c3 without ncrs type awards,
So sure a bad ncrs score will hurt a good one will help,
"if" and that's a huge if a buyer cares about ncrs.
A guy who doesnt care about numbers or original isnt going to pay extra for ncrs awards,
The guy who bought my flares said his car was some bb chromie all numbers and pristine and he is modding it, i said but isnt the value in keeping it numbers
matching stock, he said the value means zero to him he wants a car worth driving,
Ncrs is a wonderful thing stock is great i respect guys who like it but its drifting away from stock, even ncrs has a modded class they saw the writting on the wall, evolve or perish,
More and more guys want some upgrades for reasons like roger stated, sure the ncrs purists will still be there with their jewels, but more and more c3s are coming to the dark side.
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Rescue Rogers (11-23-2018)
11-23-2018, 11:20 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
OP, why are you asking this question? Are you asking because you want to make a profit on the restoration? Are you asking because you have limited funds and want to allocate them most efficiently? And then to what end, resale or use? If resale, nice paint and interior. If use, then suspension and drivetrain. If profit, forget it.
BTW, my pet peeve is “Patina”. A marketing ploy used by lazy car collectors (I blame Wayne Carinni) to convince the gullible that a POS dragged out of a barn is worth more than the same car restored to original. One is a piece of lawn art and the other a functional car.��
BTW, my pet peeve is “Patina”. A marketing ploy used by lazy car collectors (I blame Wayne Carinni) to convince the gullible that a POS dragged out of a barn is worth more than the same car restored to original. One is a piece of lawn art and the other a functional car.��
Last edited by maj75; 11-23-2018 at 11:20 AM.
11-23-2018, 11:40 AM
#5
Instructor
Thread Starter
OP, why are you asking this question? Are you asking because you want to make a profit on the restoration? Are you asking because you have limited funds and want to allocate them most efficiently? And then to what end, resale or use? If resale, nice paint and interior. If use, then suspension and drivetrain. If profit, forget it.
BTW, my pet peeve is “Patina”. A marketing ploy used by lazy car collectors (I blame Wayne Carinni) to convince the gullible that a POS dragged out of a barn is worth more than the same car restored to original. One is a piece of lawn art and the other a functional car.��
BTW, my pet peeve is “Patina”. A marketing ploy used by lazy car collectors (I blame Wayne Carinni) to convince the gullible that a POS dragged out of a barn is worth more than the same car restored to original. One is a piece of lawn art and the other a functional car.��
Buying used parts I need, but looking for an easy gauge to use besides the truth-telling spreadsheet.
11-23-2018, 12:20 PM
#6
Dementer sole survivor
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Good luck! Theres a lot of guys on Ebay parting out old corvettes for reasonable prices on small parts. I hope you achieve the desired outcome you're looking for.
11-23-2018, 12:59 PM
#7
Safety Car
11-23-2018, 04:03 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Any true “restoration” is unlikely to pay for itself, unless it’s a really high value car with unimpeachable paperwork. My definition of restoration is returning the car to showroom condition, not a nice coat of paint and Armorall the engine compartment, not modifying from stock. You can spend a ton on money on a Resto-mod, but again, I doubt you will sell it for a profit, even if you cheat by doing the work yourself, valuing your time at zero dollars.
IMHO, there is no more buy and hold to realize a profit, unless you are buying stocks. These C3s have reached their high point. The buyers who love these cars are ageing out and selling out. The new money generations don’t desire these cars. The 80s-90s cars are where the possibility of appreciation lies.
IMHO, there is no more buy and hold to realize a profit, unless you are buying stocks. These C3s have reached their high point. The buyers who love these cars are ageing out and selling out. The new money generations don’t desire these cars. The 80s-90s cars are where the possibility of appreciation lies.
Last edited by maj75; 11-23-2018 at 04:06 PM.
11-23-2018, 05:05 PM
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Any true “restoration” is unlikely to pay for itself, unless it’s a really high value car with unimpeachable paperwork. My definition of restoration is returning the car to showroom condition, not a nice coat of paint and Armorall the engine compartment, not modifying from stock. You can spend a ton on money on a Resto-mod, but again, I doubt you will sell it for a profit, even if you cheat by doing the work yourself, valuing your time at zero dollars.
IMHO, there is no more buy and hold to realize a profit, unless you are buying stocks. These C3s have reached their high point. The buyers who love these cars are ageing out and selling out. The new money generations don’t desire these cars. The 80s-90s cars are where the possibility of appreciation lies.
IMHO, there is no more buy and hold to realize a profit, unless you are buying stocks. These C3s have reached their high point. The buyers who love these cars are ageing out and selling out. The new money generations don’t desire these cars. The 80s-90s cars are where the possibility of appreciation lies.
The days of restoring a barn find c3 and selling it for enough to fund a retirement is long gone,
There was a finite amount of rare and super rare c3s seems the super rare just magically appear at places like kevin mckeys,
And a guy can buy a restored 435 4 speed 69 ragtop far cheaper than make it happen with a basketcase barn find,
Resto mods, take a base tired 74 to 77 restore it to showroom level, take same car same amount the restoation had and resto mod it and it will sell faster and for more,
The big reason resto mods are better drivers, so more desirable.
The new gen od c3 owners regardless of their age are not interested in the correct chalk mark from the assembly line or many of the aniquated features of a c3 they desire cars they can drive and enjoy, without getting spanked both in speed and handling by soccer mom in import mini van.
I see lots of guys upgrade/modify to borg power steering, 5 and 6 speed gear boxes, EFI, better suspensions etc, granted most stay stock body but paint the car a color they like not what the trim plate dictates.
11-23-2018, 06:53 PM
#10
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We have all gotten old!!!!! Face it!!! The newer generations are not that into cars, heck a lot don't even have licenses nor do they want one. I was waiting at the DMV the day I could legally get mine. There's Uber, Lift etc. driving owning a car is too much responsibility and hassles. Same goes with home ownership, why have to deal with repairs, too much work rent is far easier. Home ownership is on the decline. As soon as I saved up enough I was out of the house, now most live at home with their parents and love it!!!
And this mentality is being transferred to our beloved Vettes. Having a original Vette comes with more work to keep it running. A restomod may be, or at least seem to be, more reliable, thus a "temporary" greater demand. Enjoy your Vette, as far as getting your hard earned money back out, not a chance, at least in the foreseeable future.
Good news however is all it will take is a blockbuster movie or video game involving a Vette and maybe it will be time to sell sell sell!!!!
Sorry for the rant. I feel better now!!!! Ike
And this mentality is being transferred to our beloved Vettes. Having a original Vette comes with more work to keep it running. A restomod may be, or at least seem to be, more reliable, thus a "temporary" greater demand. Enjoy your Vette, as far as getting your hard earned money back out, not a chance, at least in the foreseeable future.
Good news however is all it will take is a blockbuster movie or video game involving a Vette and maybe it will be time to sell sell sell!!!!
Sorry for the rant. I feel better now!!!! Ike
Last edited by general ike; 11-23-2018 at 06:54 PM.
11-23-2018, 07:23 PM
#11
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As far as resto mod vs bone stock both new builds one being more reliable than the other, it to me boils down to the parts involved,
For example,
If my 69 has manual steering it doesnt get any more reliable than that,
If i go new stock c3 power steering vs aftermarket ps, aftermarket likely wins with less hoses and things to leak,
Resto mods win with things like that and 5 or 6 speeds over 4 , brakes that stop better ,engines that build big hp yet are more street friendly that that same hp was in 69 ,
And if course better tires than skinny bias plys,
Better feeling seats, all kinds of other things.
Nope, not too many young cats care about cars, my step daughter didnt get her dl until she was like 20 only because her dad hounded her to do so,
Most of the few young pups who are gear heads seem to go the import route.
But back to the OPs question, ncrs will add to the selling price and fir some buyers desirability but the bulk wont care or pay a penny for ncrs awards..
That of course depends on how sought after the car is to start with,
IE 69 bb 4 speed ragtop vs say base 77 coupe.
For example,
If my 69 has manual steering it doesnt get any more reliable than that,
If i go new stock c3 power steering vs aftermarket ps, aftermarket likely wins with less hoses and things to leak,
Resto mods win with things like that and 5 or 6 speeds over 4 , brakes that stop better ,engines that build big hp yet are more street friendly that that same hp was in 69 ,
And if course better tires than skinny bias plys,
Better feeling seats, all kinds of other things.
Nope, not too many young cats care about cars, my step daughter didnt get her dl until she was like 20 only because her dad hounded her to do so,
Most of the few young pups who are gear heads seem to go the import route.
But back to the OPs question, ncrs will add to the selling price and fir some buyers desirability but the bulk wont care or pay a penny for ncrs awards..
That of course depends on how sought after the car is to start with,
IE 69 bb 4 speed ragtop vs say base 77 coupe.
11-24-2018, 08:35 AM
#12
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11-24-2018, 09:58 AM
#13
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If the car is generally 'driver' quality, you are wasting your time and money to make it "more correct". The only buyers who really care about replacement part 'correct-ness' are folks looking for a pristine car (or one THEY can make into such a car) for NCRS judging. And only those folks will pay any premium for having the 'correct' parts on the vehicle.
The vast majority of potential buyers just want a good looking and operating C3. If you think you have a vehicle with NCRS potential and you put all original parts on the car, be prepared to put that elevated price tag on it and get ready for a LOOOONNNGG wait until someone with that interest comes to visit. Also be prepared to be bargained-with, as that buyer knows you have a short list of possible buyers.
Wish you luck, whichever way you go.
The vast majority of potential buyers just want a good looking and operating C3. If you think you have a vehicle with NCRS potential and you put all original parts on the car, be prepared to put that elevated price tag on it and get ready for a LOOOONNNGG wait until someone with that interest comes to visit. Also be prepared to be bargained-with, as that buyer knows you have a short list of possible buyers.
Wish you luck, whichever way you go.
11-24-2018, 10:11 AM
#14
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Any money that you spend on a base 72 besides paint & interior will NOT increase the value of the car & then not by much. After you buy it one is at the point of being upside down if you are looking to flip & make money. This is a hobby & don't know why some want it to be a investment tool. Buy a Corvette fix it the way you want & enjoy it. people don't expect to make money playing golf or other hobbies so why expect Corvettes too.
11-25-2018, 09:08 AM
#15
Le Mans Master
The key word is "resale". You can't make money restoring most Corvettes. It costs money to restore them. Restoration adds value, but it costs you more than it adds.
NCRS is a sport or a hobby depending on your needs. NCRS points CAN be gamed for best bang for the buck, but you still will loose money at resale.
Fixing, keeping and enjoying your car adds value to the ownership experience. Well spent money that appeals to more future potential buyers will add the most at resale time. Points are just for keeping score.
NCRS is a sport or a hobby depending on your needs. NCRS points CAN be gamed for best bang for the buck, but you still will loose money at resale.
Fixing, keeping and enjoying your car adds value to the ownership experience. Well spent money that appeals to more future potential buyers will add the most at resale time. Points are just for keeping score.