440 Chrysler vs. Big Block Chevy:
01-11-2002, 08:37 PM
#201
Melting Slicks
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Re: 440 Chrysler vs. Big Block Chevy: (Chuck Harmon)
Now were are getting somewhere, although Banshee should be going to his room for the troll like remarks in his last post!:smash:
The ZL1/L88 Vettes were street legal, but built with the expectation that open exhaust and real tires would be fitted upon delivery. But will those with an originality fetish consider the performance of the car with these expected and often dealer installed items? Perish the thought!! The only published road test of a ZL1 drag spec car was one which GM produced, assembled, lightened and fitted with an automatic for a magazine writers test day. This test absolutely must NOT be considered.
On the other hand, Chrysler builds a car with such goodies fitted but leaves out DOT required items so that they can't be legally driven on the street. In the late 60's, the practical difference between these two corporate approaches would have been considered petty. But today the debate rages on and on and on.... Can you believe back then Chevy actually took one of their own L88 cars and fitted it with a ZL1 motor to do the test? How could these guys sleep at night?
More time and lip flapping is wasted on where to draw this line.
I think that the Camaro makes for the better drag car. The more complex and expensive IRS setup on the Vette is better suited for road racing than what is needed for only dragging. Yet the Camaro has given a very good showing of Chevy's ability and also has times in the 9's for pro stock.
I think that the Camaro makes for the better drag car. The more complex and expensive IRS setup on the Vette is better suited for road racing than what is needed for only dragging. Yet the Camaro has given a very good showing of Chevy's ability and also has times in the 9's for pro stock.
L8r,
DJ
01-11-2002, 09:18 PM
#202
Safety Car
Re: 440 Chrysler vs. Big Block Chevy: (63Banshee)
Moparmal, they produced 216 L88 Corvettes from 1967 to 1969 and were not installed in Camaros and Novas from the factory. HP wise the first design L88s were capable of up to 560hp and the mid 1969 second design L88s with their open chamber heads and a number of other improvements were capable of nearly 600hp! The second design L88s and ZL1s were identical other than the aluminum block of course and were capable of 585hp. Supposedly the later L88s were slightly more powerful than the ZL1s. I am not exacltly sure why but I think it has to do with the iron sleeves in the aluminum block that costs a few HP. P.S. Banshee and Chuck for all out drag racing I would definetly rather ran a ZL1 Camaro than an L88 also.
01-12-2002, 10:45 AM
#204
Melting Slicks
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Re: 440 Chrysler vs. Big Block Chevy: (moparmal)
550 to 600hp is what the SS darts and cuda's were estimated to be producing in the 'right" hands.
:smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: I'd have to say that the only thing keeping Max from producing 630+ HP was the cam profile. Quite easily more with modern headers, like CPPA.
My .060" over 440 may have 26 c.i. over Max, MSD ignition, and a better cam profile, but it also has less cfm feeding it and less compression. My ported 452 heads (open chamber) flowed about 3 cfm over stock Max Wedge heads on the same bench on the same day (except for #8 intake runner due to a large amount of brazing needed after grinding through the wall [core shift]). I'd still opt for Max Wedge heads over my 452's, they had no more room for porting. The compression was 11:1 as opposed to 13.5:1. If I remember right my 440 cam has .570" lift / 245 @ .050 degrees bought from Hughes.
Calculated NET HP for my 440 was 650, so it produces somewhere around 700 gross. I have no doubt that Max from the factory would be it’s equal if you installed the same cam, headers, and ignition. I don't think these components are worth more then 100 HP on a Max Wedge motor. Once over 550HP it is exponentially more difficult and expensive to build HP.
Now I’ve thoroughly confused everyone...
BTW, I've begun posting goodies in "other cars." First post references a 670 HP small block build up.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=217313
Coming soon is the Pontiac 427 aluminum fuel injected HEMI from the 60's... as soon as I fix my scanner issues.
[Modified by 63Banshee, 10:35 AM 1/12/2002]
01-13-2002, 10:17 PM
#205
Melting Slicks
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Re: 440 Chrysler vs. Big Block Chevy: (63Banshee)
Banshee,
My humor is more than a bit off the wall. Most of the post was tongue and cheek. Except of course the part of your going to your room :D
I was poking fun at what I believe is utter foolishness regarding what is and isn't considered stock. Yes the ZL1 test should count, nor would I have lost one wink of sleep over Chevy's changing out engines for the test. The performance whether it was assembled originally that way or was changed wouldn't have mattered one twit! The factories occasionally resold some of these cars as new after thrashing the components, not a good thing. But if they had disclosed this fact, even with a switched engine, put a standard warranty on it, and dropped the price accordingly... WHO SHOULD BLOODY CARE YEARS LATER THAT IT WAS CONVERTED BY THE MANUFACTURER!
A race between the factory Race Hemis and the ZL1 Camaro, or 69 L88/ZL1 Vettes would have been very appropriate and interesting as long as each side got to use the same type of exhaust and tires.
Don’t whine about Mopar’s cam specs, any L88/ZL1 will make a lot more power with a better cam too!
Off the subject, but the question was raised on another post. It speculated on whether the mothers of you Mopar guy’s were married at the time of your birth. Inquiring minds want to know! :jester
Chuck
p.s. Now I think it's my turn to go to my room! :cheers:
[Modified by Chuck Harmon, 9:16 AM 1/14/2002]
My humor is more than a bit off the wall. Most of the post was tongue and cheek. Except of course the part of your going to your room :D
I was poking fun at what I believe is utter foolishness regarding what is and isn't considered stock. Yes the ZL1 test should count, nor would I have lost one wink of sleep over Chevy's changing out engines for the test. The performance whether it was assembled originally that way or was changed wouldn't have mattered one twit! The factories occasionally resold some of these cars as new after thrashing the components, not a good thing. But if they had disclosed this fact, even with a switched engine, put a standard warranty on it, and dropped the price accordingly... WHO SHOULD BLOODY CARE YEARS LATER THAT IT WAS CONVERTED BY THE MANUFACTURER!
A race between the factory Race Hemis and the ZL1 Camaro, or 69 L88/ZL1 Vettes would have been very appropriate and interesting as long as each side got to use the same type of exhaust and tires.
Don’t whine about Mopar’s cam specs, any L88/ZL1 will make a lot more power with a better cam too!
Off the subject, but the question was raised on another post. It speculated on whether the mothers of you Mopar guy’s were married at the time of your birth. Inquiring minds want to know! :jester
Chuck
p.s. Now I think it's my turn to go to my room! :cheers:
[Modified by Chuck Harmon, 9:16 AM 1/14/2002]
01-13-2002, 10:51 PM
#206
Melting Slicks
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Re: 440 Chrysler vs. Big Block Chevy: (Chuck Harmon)
Banshee,
My humor is more than a bit off the wall. Most of the post was tongue and cheek. Except of course the part of your going to your room :D
I was poking fun at what I believe is utter foolishness regarding what is and isn't considered stock. Yes the ZL1 test should count, nor would I have lost one wink of sleep over Chevy's changing out engines for the test. The performance whether it was assembled originally that way or was changed wouldn't have mattered one twit! The factories occasionally resold some of these cars as new after thrashing the components, not a good thing. But if they had disclosed this fact, even with a switched engine, put a standard warranty on it, and dropped the price accordingly... WHO SHOULD BLOODY CARE YEARS LATER THAT IT WAS CONVERTED BY THE MANUFACTURER!
A race between the factory Race Hemis and the ZL1 Camaro, or 69 L88/ZL1 Vettes would have been very appropriate and interesting as long as each side got to use the same type of exhaust and tires.
Don’t whine about Mopar’s cam specs, any L88/ZL1 will make a lot more power with a better cam too!
Off the subject, but the question was raised on another post. It speculated on whether the mothers of you Mopar guy’s were married at the time of your birth. Inquiring minds want to know! :jester
Chuck
My humor is more than a bit off the wall. Most of the post was tongue and cheek. Except of course the part of your going to your room :D
I was poking fun at what I believe is utter foolishness regarding what is and isn't considered stock. Yes the ZL1 test should count, nor would I have lost one wink of sleep over Chevy's changing out engines for the test. The performance whether it was assembled originally that way or was changed wouldn't have mattered one twit! The factories occasionally resold some of these cars as new after thrashing the components, not a good thing. But if they had disclosed this fact, even with a switched engine, put a standard warranty on it, and dropped the price accordingly... WHO SHOULD BLOODY CARE YEARS LATER THAT IT WAS CONVERTED BY THE MANUFACTURER!
A race between the factory Race Hemis and the ZL1 Camaro, or 69 L88/ZL1 Vettes would have been very appropriate and interesting as long as each side got to use the same type of exhaust and tires.
Don’t whine about Mopar’s cam specs, any L88/ZL1 will make a lot more power with a better cam too!
Off the subject, but the question was raised on another post. It speculated on whether the mothers of you Mopar guy’s were married at the time of your birth. Inquiring minds want to know! :jester
Chuck
As far as your last comment is concerned... we just confirmed who has more class around here. What thread was this brought up in?
I find it hard to believe that the experience of a restorer/engine builder can go unrecognized around here. As I’ve stated, I was a GM fanatic (Chevy & Pontiac) when I started restoring cars 15 years ago and it took more then a few engine builds of both manufactures and years at the track to show me the light. I’m not here to change your mind, but it disappoints me that so many of you are unwilling to learn from someone else’s experience. It isn’t easy to tell by these posts who knows what they are talking about and who doesn’t, but I back my comments with real world examples and engine combinations... cause I’ve been there and done it!
Right now my position is, based on experience with both, that Mopar motors are superior in many areas, especially when it comes to HP / $. What you guys are shelling out is stuff I’ve seen, read, done, or heard before.
...
Unbelievable... mystique caries a lot of weight around here.
L8r,
DJ
For those of you that are interested in another “other cars” post, I’ll be laying out the specs for a 1000 HP street motor. 800 normally aspirated + 200 juice... did I mention it runs on pump gas?
[Modified by 63Banshee, 9:49 PM 1/13/2002]
07-23-2015, 01:21 PM
#208
Le Mans Master
While we're at it we may as well have a couple beers with that pizza 
07-24-2015, 01:02 PM
#213
07-24-2015, 08:28 PM
#214
Le Mans Master
Shift at only 4500!?! 
I'm usually disappointed if my RPMs drop any lower than that.
.
I'm usually disappointed if my RPMs drop any lower than that.
.
Last edited by TheSkunkWorks; 07-24-2015 at 08:32 PM.
07-24-2015, 10:34 PM
#218
Drifting
07-25-2015, 12:35 AM
#220
Race Director
I 4th this? 5th? 6th? Whatever. Good stuff. 
L-88s were street cars and probably shouldn't have run double pumpers. BTW, we need to know what transmission and year of L-88 before we can continue this post.
L-88s were street cars and probably shouldn't have run double pumpers. BTW, we need to know what transmission and year of L-88 before we can continue this post.
Last edited by Shark Racer; 07-25-2015 at 12:45 AM.
