67HEAVEN

Take it from someone who was there....on the streets...at the height of the era!

440 Six Pack........NOT

Hemi.......closer

My 435.......never saw tailights....ever!

Tim H

Why in the heck are those 455 Buicks so darn fast?
Just when you least expect it here comes one with 510 pounds of torque and traction,that walks all over everybody then its gone.
Then its back to the big 3 like nothing just happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gerry c

Chrysler did not "invent" the hemi. It was used in aircraft long before Chrysler started using this design. It was even used in some autos before this but Chrysler was the first to mass produce one affordably. Of course even they dropped it due to production costs.

The comment to lesser MOPARS was to seperate them from the hemi. Face it, they were not as good from the factory. Look at any magazine tests from those days and you can see that. I am not talking about SS cars, they are not factory street cars.

I do not know how old you are, but it does not sound like you were active on the streetsin the sixties and early sevenities. The streets were different than the tracks then just as they are now. For example, in '62 Fords with a 406 were putting Chevy with 409's away all the time at the track, on the street it was the other way around because Ford had a more restrictive exhaust and this was the days before glass-packs and no one had discovered the Corvair Spyder muffler.... the original "turbo muffler"

On the street a 440-6 was rare, far more common was a Road Runner with a 383. Road Runners were a dime a dozen out here (California) because they were CHEAP not because they were really fast.

I still disagree about the 440-6 keeping up with a factory stock hemi. I've been there, done that and lost the pictures.

About Buicks... The 455's are great. I have two '73s with them, one a stage three buildup, both of them are in Centurions (Impala sized). Eihter one will put my stock '81 vette away in a straight line. They make a better tow car than my GMC 3500 with 454.

63Banshee

I’ll take an Elephant motor over a BB Chewy any day of the week. There is no comparison when it comes to torque and I can build more horsepower per dollar into a MOPAR. 440 wins, hands down!

Chuck Harmon

As one that was in high school during those wonderful days, all I will say is that I wouldn't be tempted in the least to turn my L88 into any of the very good Mopar engines (Including the Hemi) if I could do so with the touch of a wand.

However, all the hipo motors of that day could be made into very competitive engines cube for cube. Most of the races saw very minimal speed differences between the makes when race prepared. Ford was also running a big block hemi at NASCAR around 1970. They called the Chevy BB's "semi hemis".

Today’s race pistons are flat topped for better push by the combustion gasses. Even the modest domes of the Chevy BB's are said to be less than desirable compared to flat tops with the same compression. The hemis made for quite a tent shaped dome! Different designs had different advantages AND drawbacks!

Chuck

BubbaJJ

according to what I've read, the 455 buick isn't much heavier than a small block chevy. It also has a better bore to stroke ratio than even a 427 BB. It has a small stroke with a gigantic bore. The factory did a lot of work on the heads and came up with the stage 1 castings. The heads used in Car Craft test were a set based on the factory stage 2's (i think). Buffords can haul, I had a 68 skylark with a transplanted '55, that thing was riot.

63Banshee

MOPAR's answer to the L88 came 6 years earlier, the Max Wedge 426. The L88 had it beat on weight, but it falls short on brute strength and horsepower... winner Max.

What Chevy semi-hemi are you talking about? No Chevy head came even close to being hemispherical. It was Ford's head that was a semi-hemi mounted on the 429 motors... not quite a true hemispherical head.

SBR

63Banshee, I have seen three stock L88 engines run on engine dynos and the weakest was 517HP with the strongest being 556HP. I know that the race Hemis are stronger than that but did not think that the max wedges were also.

67HEAVEN

The Max-Wedge was competitive in the time of 327's, 348's and 409's - in the early to mid-1960's.

The big-block Chevy heads (with their staggered intake and exhaust valves) have always been known by either the "porcupine nickname or "semi-hemi" nickname (especially by engine builders). One look at the valve angles will confirm that.

mountainmotor

Quote:
"The big-block Chevy heads (with their staggered intake and exhaust valves) have always been known by either the "porcupine nickname or "semi-hemi" nickname (especially by engine builders). One look at the valve angles will confirm that."
The term is Canted Valve Heads.Have never heard the term porcupine or semi hemi used by any builder
;)

mountainmotor

Quote:
"Chrysler did not "invent" the hemi. It was used in aircraft long before Chrysler started using this design. It was even used in some autos before this but Chrysler was the first to mass produce one affordably. Of course even they dropped it due to production costs"

The term Hemi refers to the combustion chamber design only and the engine we are talking about is not a Aircraft Radial or Horizontaly Opposed motors
They dropped it due to the gas crunch and related EPA issues

Quote:
"They needed high octane then.I bet they need high octane now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really due tothe design of the Hemi, you could run LOWER octane rated fuel then in a non-hemi of the same compression ratio. This is due to the better flame travel a hemi head allows"

Nope or yep! Depends on if you want to detune one to achieve the ability to run pump gas with a small cam.They have no quench and require hi octane.They don,t really make the best blown gas motors because of this.
A very good friend of mine was Dick Landy's crew chief for many years.With his ever present can of beer in his hand he has taught me much about a motor that is still undesireable for most applications because of it's thirst for octane.But is highly desirable with the use of methanol and of course nitromethane.I don't have a scanner but will ask a typer here in the house to post a couple dyno pulls we did with two Hemis that were very conservative tune up wise for Hydroplanes that needed to live w/o alot of maintance.This is the type of power that would kick the guts out of any Big Block including the Rodeck.



[Modified by mountainmotor, 12:32 PM 12/25/2001]

67HEAVEN

"In 1966 Chevrolet offered a full range of 396 cubic inch ‘Porcupine Head’ engines in the mid-size Chevelle line. With up to 375 bhp, the SS 396 put real power into the line that has come to epitomize Chevy’s muscle car heritage. Dubbed ‘Porcupine Head’ because of its different stem angles for intake and exhaust valves, the 396 breathed well and was Chevrolet’s response to the effectiveness of Chrysler’s more complicated Hemi head engines."
Above quote taken from http://www.sportscarmarket.com/mp/9906-usa.php

When it came to engines, there were many options open. Chevrolet had come up with the famous (or infamous - if you are a Ford fan), "Porcupine" 427 engine for stock car racing. This engine was definitely a possibility and Mickey Thompson used the engine in the various Grand Sports he ran."
Above quote taken from http://www.cfca.net/news/news_0108.htm

"To be brutally honest, the 390 was easily a generation or two behind the porcupine-headed 396 from Chevy...
Above quote taken from http://www.speedvision.com/pub/artic...e/010723a.html

"This car was originally an L-78 396/375, as those were the engines Nickey and Thomas were selling to the hot rodders. They also had kits and "how to" articles for dropping the new"semi-hemi" into the popular 55-57 Chevies.
Above quote taken from http://www.yenko.net/features/2000/November2000.htm

**************************************** **************
There are hundreds of other Internet and printed references available.





[Modified by 67HEAVEN, 2:30 PM 12/25/2001]

mrvette

Them 455 Buicks were so fast because the blocks were to thinly cast you could see through them.....so the suckers' flew....must have been 200 lbs lighter than say a Pontiac....
I knew a fellow back in the late 60's that ran a 5500 lbs Pontiac Bonneville stationwagon.....into the lo 13's.....all that damn glass and weight on the back, the car launched like a tiger, never spun a wheel....crazy to watch...not much of a street driver though , what with 456 gears.....

GENE

mountainmotor

Yep,Kenne -Bell did much for the Buick engines.Probably humbled many Chevy's,Fords and Chryslers.

All the big motors from GM packed a healthy punch in certain years

Chrysler had a disadvantage from the start with the use of leaf springs.The Chevelle type set up used in other GM cars was home of the "missile launch".Many of the old car tests in the 1/4 was different tracks,drivers.tires and elevation that was not corrected .That in itself makes it diffcult to compare car to car.So really what worked on the street was where it was at and to those of you that never saw tail lites on a Chrysler you were just plane lucky that you did not run across a well tuned"30hp was gained by leaning the carbs' 440 6 pack with automatic and slicks in a AAR Cuda or a Challenger R/T!
I am outa this topic ! No more for me!This could go on forever. :)

Chuck Harmon

67HEAVEN,

It's lonely at the top, isn't it? Perhaps the "Flat Earth" society is alive and well! :jester

Chuck

Chuck Harmon

My wife wants me to suggest that those of us now clicking away on Christmas day are truly sick! She doesn't understand any more than the Mopar guys!!

No, I can quit anytime.
Yes, really I can
OK, just give me a few more minutes.
Onlu one more post!
All right, I'm almost done.
I'm coming!
Yes, in a minute!!
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help

:cry

67HEAVEN

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Toooooooooooo true, Chuck. Good thing we don't live any closer together! :smash:

gerry c

The 426 Hemi was dropped for EPA issues not the gas crunch. The gas crunch was not til '73...... I was in lines then.

The older generation (which I was referring to above) was dropped for cost reasons. The 426 never made sense for Chrysler directly on the money end. It did make sense on the advertising side of it though.

Like you said above the Hemi refers to combustion camber design... NOT engine design. Hemi heads were around before Chrysler used it.

A lot of what was written about the first gen Hemis mentioned how Chrysler was able to build a motor with a "higher" (at that time) CR was was happy with regular gas.

The Hemi was a great engine, I have one in my '57 Imperial. The wedges however were only so-so as far as street engines go. On the street back then it was for the most part six of one half a dozen of any of the others. Not a lot of difference between any of them from the factory they were all close. Once you started building them the the Big Chryslers and the Chevy BB's stood out more because they were much more common and parts were more available.

63Banshee

:lol:
You guys crack me up! I could go into details about how many low 11 second Max Wedge cars I’ve seen running Nostalgia and NMCA events. I could also go into numbers crunching to prove 600 hp Max Wedge motors were built from the factory, but I won’t waste my time. Both motors are very respectable and I was simply trying to voice a non-bias opinion (I’ve owned many makes from all “3”).

As far as the semi-hemi goes… Chevy and Ford “needed” an answer to the Hemi, Ford the closer of the two (I still don’t buy the Chevy semi-hemi). Regardless of what you call a non-hemispherical head it is not a Hemi, and if you ask me “semi-hemi” sounds a lot like “second best.”

Have a happy holiday!

67HEAVEN

Looks like everyone else has abandoned their positions.

The hill is ours, Chuck!
:chevy rules :smash:
:D