E85 fuel test on my C3
09-23-2009, 02:22 PM
#41
Instructor
"Clear thinking shows that we value the services that energy can perform, not the energy per se, so it would be better to compare fuels by the services that each provides...not on a straight energy basis...which is likely to be irrelevant and misleading," says Dale.
Why oh why wouldn't you rate the value of energy by its actual energy potential per mole? Because, gasoline has a higher energy output per mole than ethanol!
For example, biofuels could be rated on how much petroleum use they can displace or their greenhouse gas production compared with petroleum. His calculations indicate that every MJ of ethanol can displace 28 MJ of petroleum, in other words ethanol greatly extends our existing supplies of petroleum. Using corn ethanol provides an 18% reduction in greenhouse gasses compared with petrol, while fibre-produced ethanol gives a 88% reduction compared to petrol.
Now to debunk this one. Why would you want to change the way the rating of net energy that is currently in use for something else? Because the "scientist" wants ethanol to look better than it is when comparing net energy. How can he do this? by what he suggests. Rate the pollution output per mole of energy where ethanol shines. Forget that it would take more energy to produce a gallon of gasoline than a gallon of ethanol!
Don't get me wrong I personally think that we need to be weened off oil. I think solar, wind, hydro, and tidal energy is the way to go. I think electric cars are the future. Ethanol just doesn't seem like the best way to ween ourselves when there are other options available that are cheaper and more efficient in the short term to get us to energy independence.
Okay, now that I have helped fan the flames I'm going back into my hole. Hopefully we can keep this civil and have a discussion instead of a epeen shouting match.
Why oh why wouldn't you rate the value of energy by its actual energy potential per mole? Because, gasoline has a higher energy output per mole than ethanol!
For example, biofuels could be rated on how much petroleum use they can displace or their greenhouse gas production compared with petroleum. His calculations indicate that every MJ of ethanol can displace 28 MJ of petroleum, in other words ethanol greatly extends our existing supplies of petroleum. Using corn ethanol provides an 18% reduction in greenhouse gasses compared with petrol, while fibre-produced ethanol gives a 88% reduction compared to petrol.
Now to debunk this one. Why would you want to change the way the rating of net energy that is currently in use for something else? Because the "scientist" wants ethanol to look better than it is when comparing net energy. How can he do this? by what he suggests. Rate the pollution output per mole of energy where ethanol shines. Forget that it would take more energy to produce a gallon of gasoline than a gallon of ethanol!
Don't get me wrong I personally think that we need to be weened off oil. I think solar, wind, hydro, and tidal energy is the way to go. I think electric cars are the future. Ethanol just doesn't seem like the best way to ween ourselves when there are other options available that are cheaper and more efficient in the short term to get us to energy independence.
Okay, now that I have helped fan the flames I'm going back into my hole. Hopefully we can keep this civil and have a discussion instead of a epeen shouting match.
09-23-2009, 09:02 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Just to summarize as to not lose the point with all the political garbage in here.
1. I filled up with E85 200 miles from home. (give me some credit for having some *****)
2. The car ran great with no changes to anything.
3. It went the same distance on the return trip.
4. My head didn't explode and mess up the inside of my car. The world did not come to an end.
You guys are afraid the government is going to force you to use this stuff. I don't see why you even care as most of you put very little miles on your cars anyway.
It's amazing all the people who majored in partying and drinking instantly become scientists and engineers whenever this subject comes up.
Give all the anti government propaganda a rest. Man this tin foil hat stuff gets old quick.
Let's hear from people who have actually used E85.
1. I filled up with E85 200 miles from home. (give me some credit for having some *****)
2. The car ran great with no changes to anything.
3. It went the same distance on the return trip.
4. My head didn't explode and mess up the inside of my car. The world did not come to an end.
You guys are afraid the government is going to force you to use this stuff. I don't see why you even care as most of you put very little miles on your cars anyway.
It's amazing all the people who majored in partying and drinking instantly become scientists and engineers whenever this subject comes up.
Give all the anti government propaganda a rest. Man this tin foil hat stuff gets old quick.
Let's hear from people who have actually used E85.
Last edited by turtlevette; 09-23-2009 at 09:14 PM.
09-23-2009, 09:37 PM
#44
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turtle -
It seems that you have your mind made up no matter that others are just trying to give you helpful information and opinions from their own experiences. You fail to accept the fact that ethanol will have detrimental effects OVER TIME instead of just in one tankful.
You started this thread and are unhappy with responses. I say, if you want to use E85 in a car not designed for it, go right ahead. It's your car so run whatever you want. The rest of us will foolishly use the fuels that our cars were designed for.
Terry
It seems that you have your mind made up no matter that others are just trying to give you helpful information and opinions from their own experiences. You fail to accept the fact that ethanol will have detrimental effects OVER TIME instead of just in one tankful.
You started this thread and are unhappy with responses. I say, if you want to use E85 in a car not designed for it, go right ahead. It's your car so run whatever you want. The rest of us will foolishly use the fuels that our cars were designed for.
Terry
09-23-2009, 09:53 PM
#45
Le Mans Master
turtle -
It seems that you have your mind made up no matter that others are just trying to give you helpful information and opinions from their own experiences. You fail to accept the fact that ethanol will have detrimental effects OVER TIME instead of just in one tankful.
You started this thread and are unhappy with responses. I say, if you want to use E85 in a car not designed for it, go right ahead. It's your car so run whatever you want. The rest of us will foolishly use the fuels that our cars were designed for.
Terry
It seems that you have your mind made up no matter that others are just trying to give you helpful information and opinions from their own experiences. You fail to accept the fact that ethanol will have detrimental effects OVER TIME instead of just in one tankful.
You started this thread and are unhappy with responses. I say, if you want to use E85 in a car not designed for it, go right ahead. It's your car so run whatever you want. The rest of us will foolishly use the fuels that our cars were designed for.
Terry
09-23-2009, 10:36 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
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turtle -
It seems that you have your mind made up no matter that others are just trying to give you helpful information and opinions from their own experiences. You fail to accept the fact that ethanol will have detrimental effects OVER TIME instead of just in one tankful.
You started this thread and are unhappy with responses. I say, if you want to use E85 in a car not designed for it, go right ahead. It's your car so run whatever you want. The rest of us will foolishly use the fuels that our cars were designed for.
Terry
It seems that you have your mind made up no matter that others are just trying to give you helpful information and opinions from their own experiences. You fail to accept the fact that ethanol will have detrimental effects OVER TIME instead of just in one tankful.
You started this thread and are unhappy with responses. I say, if you want to use E85 in a car not designed for it, go right ahead. It's your car so run whatever you want. The rest of us will foolishly use the fuels that our cars were designed for.
Terry
09-23-2009, 11:05 PM
#47
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Actually, most E85 users who put it in older cars are reporting the effects on the systems are minimal. After all, ethanol isn't "corrosive." It does have an affinity for water, and the water might damage your fuel system. Most gaskets and parts have been made with alcohol compatible materials for about 25 years now, so any replaced pieces are probably OK. Chances are that you might notice the effects after a couple decades or so...
09-24-2009, 04:28 AM
#48
Race Director
Actually, most E85 users who put it in older cars are reporting the effects on the systems are minimal. After all, ethanol isn't "corrosive." It does have an affinity for water, and the water might damage your fuel system. Most gaskets and parts have been made with alcohol compatible materials for about 25 years now, so any replaced pieces are probably OK. Chances are that you might notice the effects after a couple decades or so...
That has always been my understanding.
Varients such as "gasahol" and such have been around since the early 70's and manufacturers took note way back then and started ramping for them.
Turtle's main intent here was to debunk an old wive's tale turned to fact by repetition (throw enough **** at the wall and some will stick).
Turtle succeeded.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...rience-c3.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-g...fe-to-use.html
3 hours from home is a big accomplishment.
How many others here would have the ***** to try that.
Obviously, with minor, side of the road adjustments, the car made it back running decently, a far cry from some nonesense predicted in the other threads.
As far as the politics of this, maybe I should have bought Exxon stock back when gasoline was 25 cents a gallon, but my crystal ball was cloudy back then too.
09-24-2009, 09:02 PM
#49
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I live in the middle of corn country and don't remember ethanol until the early 80's and then only at a very few stations as well as FS and other farm suppliers. We had mostly straight gas here until just a few years ago and could still find non-ethanol gas at several stations until early 2008.
And yes, at least in this part of the country, the gas our C3's were designed to use is totally gone but I would never use E85 in mine. Why do it? IMHO, there is no need to take a chance on the 85% and 10% is bad enough. There are guys on this forum who have had gas tank bladder and rubber fuel line problems, quite possible from being forced to use ethanol.
And as I said earlier, I have talked to more than one boat marina operator who has seen increased fuel system problems attributed to the alcohol in today's fuels.
Check your owners manual for your small engine equipment such as a lawn mower, etc. It will likely tell you to use gasoline without alcohol. Are the manufacturers just trying to make your life difficult or do they have a good reason?
Terry
Last edited by tnovot; 09-24-2009 at 09:11 PM. Reason: typo
09-25-2009, 02:31 AM
#50
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Are you sure you're not confusing the introduction of ethanol with the transition from leaded to non-leaded gas due to cats which were used beginning in 1975?
I live in the middle of corn country and don't remember ethanol until the early 80's and then only at a very few stations as well as FS and other farm suppliers. We had mostly straight gas here until just a few years ago and could still find non-ethanol gas at several stations until early 2008.
And yes, at least in this part of the country, the gas our C3's were designed to use is totally gone but I would never use E85 in mine. Why do it? IMHO, there is no need to take a chance on the 85% and 10% is bad enough. There are guys on this forum who have had gas tank bladder and rubber fuel line problems, quite possible from being forced to use ethanol.
And as I said earlier, I have talked to more than one boat marina operator who has seen increased fuel system problems attributed to the alcohol in today's fuels.
Check your owners manual for your small engine equipment such as a lawn mower, etc. It will likely tell you to use gasoline without alcohol. Are the manufacturers just trying to make your life difficult or do they have a good reason?
Terry
I live in the middle of corn country and don't remember ethanol until the early 80's and then only at a very few stations as well as FS and other farm suppliers. We had mostly straight gas here until just a few years ago and could still find non-ethanol gas at several stations until early 2008.
And yes, at least in this part of the country, the gas our C3's were designed to use is totally gone but I would never use E85 in mine. Why do it? IMHO, there is no need to take a chance on the 85% and 10% is bad enough. There are guys on this forum who have had gas tank bladder and rubber fuel line problems, quite possible from being forced to use ethanol.
And as I said earlier, I have talked to more than one boat marina operator who has seen increased fuel system problems attributed to the alcohol in today's fuels.
Check your owners manual for your small engine equipment such as a lawn mower, etc. It will likely tell you to use gasoline without alcohol. Are the manufacturers just trying to make your life difficult or do they have a good reason?
Terry
09-25-2009, 06:52 AM
#51
Race Director
No, the end of leaded was around 86/87, at least here anyway.
After the gas lines of 73, the alternatives were tried, gasahol was spotty in local areas, not received well at all and lasted a very short time. Don't remeber the percentange alcohol.
Start of the corn lobby though.
After the gas lines of 73, the alternatives were tried, gasahol was spotty in local areas, not received well at all and lasted a very short time. Don't remeber the percentange alcohol.
Start of the corn lobby though.
09-25-2009, 09:25 AM
#52
Drifting
I live in Farm country, Oklahoma, but here there are very very few stations with any Ethanol at all. They started adding it and every station that used it was empty, then signs went up saying ALL GAS HERE and the like. We are folks with common sense, and it showed, the Ethanol started going away. I used it in my lawnmower and the seams on the plastic gas tank came apart. Even 10 percent is corrosive just slower. I say drop the subsides, if it is meant to be, then demand with grow it, if not it will go away. Just my 2 cents.
09-25-2009, 07:53 PM
#54
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St. Jude Donor '09
I once drank two quart mason jars of grain alcohol and it didn't kill me and I made it home.
Guess I can save a ton of money and drink it everyday.
Guess I can save a ton of money and drink it everyday.
09-25-2009, 08:05 PM
#55
Drifting
Just to summarize as to not lose the point with all the political garbage in here.
1. I filled up with E85 200 miles from home. (give me some credit for having some *****)
2. The car ran great with no changes to anything.
3. It went the same distance on the return trip.
4. My head didn't explode and mess up the inside of my car. The world did not come to an end.
You guys are afraid the government is going to force you to use this stuff. I don't see why you even care as most of you put very little miles on your cars anyway.
It's amazing all the people who majored in partying and drinking instantly become scientists and engineers whenever this subject comes up.
Give all the anti government propaganda a rest. Man this tin foil hat stuff gets old quick.
Let's hear from people who have actually used E85.
1. I filled up with E85 200 miles from home. (give me some credit for having some *****)
2. The car ran great with no changes to anything.
3. It went the same distance on the return trip.
4. My head didn't explode and mess up the inside of my car. The world did not come to an end.
You guys are afraid the government is going to force you to use this stuff. I don't see why you even care as most of you put very little miles on your cars anyway.
It's amazing all the people who majored in partying and drinking instantly become scientists and engineers whenever this subject comes up.
Give all the anti government propaganda a rest. Man this tin foil hat stuff gets old quick.
Let's hear from people who have actually used E85.
09-25-2009, 09:52 PM
#56
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I'd be interested in little experiment. I'd like to see someone who has access to E85 fuel and has an old carb laying around to throw the carb in a bucket of fuel (or part of the carb in a Mason jar full of fuel), and let it soak for a couple weeks. I'm not speculating either way on the outcome, but it would be nice to see some before and after pictures to add some actual data to the debate.
FWIW, what is the physical composition of most carb housings? (I'm under the impression that it is some mixture of zinc and aluminum.)
FWIW, what is the physical composition of most carb housings? (I'm under the impression that it is some mixture of zinc and aluminum.)
09-26-2009, 12:56 AM
#57
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I'd be interested in little experiment. I'd like to see someone who has access to E85 fuel and has an old carb laying around to throw the carb in a bucket of fuel (or part of the carb in a Mason jar full of fuel), and let it soak for a couple weeks. I'm not speculating either way on the outcome, but it would be nice to see some before and after pictures to add some actual data to the debate.
FWIW, what is the physical composition of most carb housings? (I'm under the impression that it is some mixture of zinc and aluminum.)
FWIW, what is the physical composition of most carb housings? (I'm under the impression that it is some mixture of zinc and aluminum.)
I can do that. I've got an old QJ, a holley, steel fuel line, rubber fuel line. What else do you want to throw in there? I could splash some on my ***** as well.
09-26-2009, 11:49 AM
#60
Safety Car
I have run E85 in more than one older car and it is fine. My 81' (which is heavily modified mind you) makes a lot more power on the dyno running E85 than conventional. I ran E85 in an old chevy pickup years ago and it worked fine. It's nothing to fight about. It's out there and works fine.
And to the old story about "ethanol takes more petoroleum fuel to make than you get out of it", that is simply wrong. As a matter of fact, I have done a lot of work at ethanol plants and know how the process is done. Our local ethanol plant uses NO petroleum based fuel in the process. They don't even run their boiler because of an ingenious arrangement with a power plant. And ours isn't the only forward thinking ethanol plant out there.
-Justin
And to the old story about "ethanol takes more petoroleum fuel to make than you get out of it", that is simply wrong. As a matter of fact, I have done a lot of work at ethanol plants and know how the process is done. Our local ethanol plant uses NO petroleum based fuel in the process. They don't even run their boiler because of an ingenious arrangement with a power plant. And ours isn't the only forward thinking ethanol plant out there.
-Justin
