List of Flat-Tappet Oils
12-09-2009, 03:46 PM
#21
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Rotella T notes that it meets BOTH CJ-4 AND SM (which is limited to 800 PPM ZDDP) - so I'm really not sold either way.
I'll send a note to Shell and see what happens - and mark Rotella as "provisional" for the moment.
All good discussion and thank you all! Hopefully this will collect all the stuff in one place to make this the *last* "What oil..." thread
I'll send a note to Shell and see what happens - and mark Rotella as "provisional" for the moment.
All good discussion and thank you all! Hopefully this will collect all the stuff in one place to make this the *last* "What oil..." thread
Last edited by billla; 12-09-2009 at 03:55 PM.
12-09-2009, 04:20 PM
#22
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
OK, I'm taking ths as definitive:
Dear Sir,
Rotella T does meet both API CJ-4 and API SM requirements and still has ~ 1200 ppm ZDDP . The reduction in ZDDP requirement is not an API specification, but an ILSAC GF 4 requirement.
Regards,
Shell Technical
Dear Sir,
Rotella T does meet both API CJ-4 and API SM requirements and still has ~ 1200 ppm ZDDP . The reduction in ZDDP requirement is not an API specification, but an ILSAC GF 4 requirement.
Regards,
Shell Technical
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TeeMac88 (11-18-2021)
12-09-2009, 05:02 PM
#25
Race Director
Limited to is the key phrase here. That would be CJ-4 has 1200 PPM maximium. 1200 PPM is a minimum requirement for flat tappet cams. A stock hydraulic flat tappet cam with low spring pressures might be ok at these levels and might not. If you have an upgraded cam, solid lifter cam, higher spring pressures because of your ramp rate and or lift, high RPM operation or high horsepower applications you need ZDDP and 1400 PPM is what I would look for. I am not an expert. Use what you want but CJ-4 does not meet the recommended minimum 1200 PPM ZDDP levels needed for flat tappet cam protection, it is close. Some of the other CJ-4 oils have 1000 to 1100 PPM and the manufacturers are recommending them for flat tappet engines. Guarantee if you wipe a lobe they will not be repairing your motor. If you change your oil and filter once a year the cost of a proven higher ZDDP oil and filter will run $20 to $40 a year extra. A wiped lobe will cost anywhere from $500 if you do the work yourself and have no other damage to well over $10,000 if you have a high performance build and have other damage as a result of the shrapnel and hire the work done. Small cost for piece of mind. Look at the royal purple description in the original post. Curious as to the actual ZDDP levels in the two listed and how they arrive at the use for each. Good thread.
Last edited by 63mako; 12-09-2009 at 05:15 PM.
12-09-2009, 05:11 PM
#26
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I agree that everyone needs to assess the value of their investment and make the right choices - even expen$ive oil is cheap over the long haul.
12-09-2009, 05:18 PM
#27
Melting Slicks
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Let me add one more thing to this discussion about the response I got when I called up the folks at Brad Penn.
They said, yes, the ZDDP level is very important but there's another factor that gets overlooked. And that's the 'stickiness' of the oil. I can't remember the exact term he used, but they have a way of measuring the 'stickiness' that very few others use in their analysis. One of the problems with some of the full synthetic oils is that it doesn't stay on the metal very long. So when your motor isn't running, a lot of that protection literally just slides off. So we all know how initial startup can be a major wear period....stickiness is important. Anywho, he was claiming that their 'stickiness' is some of the highest in the industry. Unfortunately I don't have any of their lab data to back this up but I can tell you that I've had builds that sat for close to a year and all the parts still had a coating of oil on them like they had just been splashed with fresh oil. The rep claimed that it was mostly the properties of their base stock oil that gave these results and why very few if any other oils exhibited this same behavior.
Being in the oil industry, I do know that Pennsylvania crude (where the base stock in Brad Penn comes from) is unique compared to oil produced from other reservoirs around the globe.
Just my $.02
They said, yes, the ZDDP level is very important but there's another factor that gets overlooked. And that's the 'stickiness' of the oil. I can't remember the exact term he used, but they have a way of measuring the 'stickiness' that very few others use in their analysis. One of the problems with some of the full synthetic oils is that it doesn't stay on the metal very long. So when your motor isn't running, a lot of that protection literally just slides off. So we all know how initial startup can be a major wear period....stickiness is important. Anywho, he was claiming that their 'stickiness' is some of the highest in the industry. Unfortunately I don't have any of their lab data to back this up but I can tell you that I've had builds that sat for close to a year and all the parts still had a coating of oil on them like they had just been splashed with fresh oil. The rep claimed that it was mostly the properties of their base stock oil that gave these results and why very few if any other oils exhibited this same behavior.
Being in the oil industry, I do know that Pennsylvania crude (where the base stock in Brad Penn comes from) is unique compared to oil produced from other reservoirs around the globe.
Just my $.02
12-09-2009, 05:23 PM
#28
Race Director
Let me add one more thing to this discussion about the response I got when I called up the folks at Brad Penn.
They said, yes, the ZDDP level is very important but there's another factor that gets overlooked. And that's the 'stickiness' of the oil. I can't remember the exact term he used, but they have a way of measuring the 'stickiness' that very few others use in their analysis. One of the problems with some of the full synthetic oils is that it doesn't stay on the metal very long. So when your motor isn't running, a lot of that protection literally just slides off. So we all know how initial startup can be a major wear period....stickiness is important. Anywho, he was claiming that their 'stickiness' is some of the highest in the industry. Unfortunately I don't have any of their lab data to back this up but I can tell you that I've had builds that sat for close to a year and all the parts still had a coating of oil on them like they had just been splashed with fresh oil. The rep claimed that it was mostly the properties of their base stock oil that gave these results and why very few if any other oils exhibited this same behavior.
Being in the oil industry, I do know that Pennsylvania crude (where the base stock in Brad Penn comes from) is unique compared to oil produced from other reservoirs around the globe.
Just my $.02
They said, yes, the ZDDP level is very important but there's another factor that gets overlooked. And that's the 'stickiness' of the oil. I can't remember the exact term he used, but they have a way of measuring the 'stickiness' that very few others use in their analysis. One of the problems with some of the full synthetic oils is that it doesn't stay on the metal very long. So when your motor isn't running, a lot of that protection literally just slides off. So we all know how initial startup can be a major wear period....stickiness is important. Anywho, he was claiming that their 'stickiness' is some of the highest in the industry. Unfortunately I don't have any of their lab data to back this up but I can tell you that I've had builds that sat for close to a year and all the parts still had a coating of oil on them like they had just been splashed with fresh oil. The rep claimed that it was mostly the properties of their base stock oil that gave these results and why very few if any other oils exhibited this same behavior.
Being in the oil industry, I do know that Pennsylvania crude (where the base stock in Brad Penn comes from) is unique compared to oil produced from other reservoirs around the globe.
Just my $.02
Personally the closer to 1400ppm ZDDP the better I would not run 1200 IMHO especially on a flat tappet cam
12-09-2009, 05:25 PM
#29
Instructor
Yay, I love oil threads!
OK, I own a diesel and put Shell Rotalla in it. Because I don't believe anything an oil company tells me I have my oil tested by Blackstone. The report below shows oil that has run about 3000 miles on my truck from 3 different oil changes. I run the 15W40. So you can take what you want from the numbers. For those of you that are nervous about using a particular type of oil you can have it tested before you use it for about 20 bucks. That 20 bucks goes a long way in knowing what exactly you are putting in your engine.
Next on the reports is from my break-in on my 1969 350/350 using Joe Gibbs Break-in Oil and Comp Cams additive. Take what you want from the reports.
OK, I own a diesel and put Shell Rotalla in it. Because I don't believe anything an oil company tells me I have my oil tested by Blackstone. The report below shows oil that has run about 3000 miles on my truck from 3 different oil changes. I run the 15W40. So you can take what you want from the numbers. For those of you that are nervous about using a particular type of oil you can have it tested before you use it for about 20 bucks. That 20 bucks goes a long way in knowing what exactly you are putting in your engine.
Next on the reports is from my break-in on my 1969 350/350 using Joe Gibbs Break-in Oil and Comp Cams additive. Take what you want from the reports.
12-09-2009, 08:59 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
This is a great discussion! I still stick to the 1,200 PPM ZDDP for a typical street/stock flat tappet cam engine. I think that there is some validity for higher levels for engines that run higher spring pressures. I do not buy the old baloney that true synthetics don't stay on the internal parts to the some degree as dino oil and your engine will suffer premature wear-I guess that is why many of the newer high performance engines-such as Porschess and Corvette Z06/ZR1's/base corvettes, etc-use a true synthetic form the FACTORY! I also don't buy into one bit this whole diesel oil phenomenon being superior to conventional/synthetic gas oils-where the heck to that nonsense come from? Diesel oils are formulated for Diesel engines and Gas oils are formulated for gas engines-This isn't hard, is it?
12-09-2009, 09:20 PM
#31
Instructor
Member Since: Oct 2007
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Couple of questions:
Is Amsoil sold in regular auto parts stores?
Would oil with greater than 10W-- on the lower end of the viscosity range (like the 20W50) be bad for wear at engine start-up in older engines like we have?
Is Amsoil sold in regular auto parts stores?
Would oil with greater than 10W-- on the lower end of the viscosity range (like the 20W50) be bad for wear at engine start-up in older engines like we have?
12-09-2009, 11:17 PM
#32
Race Director
http://lshim.com/comparison.htm
The racing oils do have lower levels of certain additives that extend drain intervals and detergents that reduce sludge. The diesel oil have additives that gasoline engines don't need and high amounts of detergent that can reduce the effectivness of ZDDP. A lot of the S rated oils with enough ZDDP are also thicker than the recommended weight these engines require especially fresh builds with better clearances. If this concerns you do your research like Billa says. The Blackstone oil analysis is a great $20 to spend if you have any question or doubt. Bobistheoilguy.com has all the info you could ever need on any question you have on oil.
Last edited by 63mako; 12-09-2009 at 11:29 PM.
12-11-2009, 02:09 AM
#33
Le Mans Master
I would think Joe Gibbs Hot Rod oil should be on the list, it is a street engine oil with the proper detergents for long life. Link: http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/hotrod/index.html
12-11-2009, 09:01 AM
#34
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Current Syntec 20W-50 (for classic cars) is actually a modern premium quality API SM product that has been Zinc boosted to Zinc levels that are reminiscent of levels from historic API categories such as SG when flat tappet cams with high spring loads were common in the fleet. For reference, note that the API SM category has the most rigorous passenger car engine oil (PCO) test performance requirements in the history of the API PCO categories.
The level of Zinc in the new Syntec 20W-50 is a minimum of 1200 ppm, which will provide excellent anti-wear protection for the cam and lifters in a flat-tappet cam engine.
Thank you again for contacting Castrol, we appreciate you patronage!
Castrol Consumer Relations
The level of Zinc in the new Syntec 20W-50 is a minimum of 1200 ppm, which will provide excellent anti-wear protection for the cam and lifters in a flat-tappet cam engine.
Thank you again for contacting Castrol, we appreciate you patronage!
Castrol Consumer Relations
12-11-2009, 09:04 AM
#35
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Folks, I'm digging through all of the responses and data and working to get all this stuff into the main post.
It kinda sucks, but I have to use my judgement here a bit on what's validation of ZDDP levels. Bear with me while I sort it out.
If you think this should be a sticky, let the mods know.
It kinda sucks, but I have to use my judgement here a bit on what's validation of ZDDP levels. Bear with me while I sort it out.
If you think this should be a sticky, let the mods know.
12-11-2009, 09:14 AM
#36
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
12-11-2009, 05:57 PM
#37
Le Mans Master
0w30
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...33#Post1570933
ow20
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...56#Post1630856
redline break in additive
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...86#Post1199486
10w40
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...13#Post1539713
5w40
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...11#Post1465711
5w20
http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/mesasto..._AN_(2=07).pdf
5w30
this one is down a little in P
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...37#Post1314937
12-12-2009, 03:57 PM
#38
Race Director
What did you spend on your build? Is it numbers matching? Are you running an aftermarket cam? Proper break in oils and gasoline engine oils are available that are specifically engineered to protect your engine design. I just don't understand why anyone would have a $4000 to $10000 engine and use an oil not engineered for it in it when it is only $20 or $30 a year at the most difference for the oil that is correctly, specificly engineered for it that has the correct weight and additives??????
12-12-2009, 08:56 PM
#40
